Unexpected Loss and Healing Through Poetry

0:00:06 - Maya 

Welcome to the Surviving Siblings podcast. I'm your host, Maya Roffler. As a surviving sibling myself, I knew that I wanted to share my story, my brother's story. I lost my brother to a homicide in November 2016. And after going through this experience, I knew that I wanted to share my story and his story. And now it's your turn to share your stories. Today, I have another incredible surviving sibling with us. Her name is Lang Lang. Welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. It's great to be here. I'm really excited to have you here and I'm really excited that we connected recently and talked about your book and your journey, and we're going to talk about all of it here. But I want to kick off by having you tell us a little bit about you and your sister Ginna, obviously, why we're here today and your experience together and kind of your background and connection. Can you tell us a little bit about that, lang? 

0:01:13 - Laing

Sure. So my sister and I grew up in New York City and we went to an all-girls school on the Upper East Side and we both went to school there through eighth grade and then we actually both went to boarding school in Connecticut and ended up at the same schools and then we both ended up at the same college as well, and so we were together a lot through the years and you know, I think that there probably were pros and cons of that. It was obviously really nice to have someone that you would trust around all the time and on the other hand, you know my mom has mentioned it for times that she wonders if that wasn't fair to my sister to sort of, since she was younger, to sort of have to always be following and not have sort of her own place, to sort of carve her own path. I mean, we study different things and but you know, we did spend a lot of time together and our parents were divorced when I was 10. 

And she was seven, and so I think you know when you've got something that you go through, that's really hard together. 

You know you end up with a certain bond that comes from it, and then there was also probably a separation that existed as a result of that as well, in that we handled things differently, partly because of age and partly because of disposition. So I tended to be I came out of that as someone who sort of liked to go straight through the middle of things, you know, emotionally, and really sort of deal with things very upfront, and she tended to internalize them more and and just process it differently, and I think that that was a way in which we sort of diverged at different times in our life in particular. So but you know, in general we were, we were, we were friendly and close and you know, obviously all relationships have come and go at different stages of life, but but she was super charming and smart and funny and you know she, she and I, you know, shared a lot of friends and common and so she's awesome. I miss. 

0:03:34 - Maya 

Yeah, of course, I totally understand. My brother and I were three years apart too, but, yeah, that's that's interesting. I was going to ask you. You know what the age difference was, so that's interesting. We have that in common, yeah, and I think that's that's good. And I'm the oldest too, so it's just a different dynamic too. 

I think when you because I'm a product of divorce as well, right and when you're the oldest and you're seeing things like and it depends on the personality type too so, but you guys were super like tied together, going to all these different schools together and kind of moving through life together, that's really interesting. Yeah, I'm sure that's. And it's interesting that your mom reflects back and goes I wonder if that impacted her. I think that's kind of interesting. Yeah, I like talking about family dynamics because I think it's integral into the story of your, your grief and loss, right too? So so tell us a little bit about you, know, going up to the loss of Ginna, because your loss with Ginna is still quite recent. It was in 2019. So tell us a little bit about your experience. Tell us a little bit about what happened and what life was like as you were moving into that loss. 

0:04:39 - Laing

Sure so. So Ginna lived in Nashville. She had a daughter who was nine at the time, and I lived in Southern California, so we both had moved away from York, away from the East Coast. I think that was actually something that we shared in common, that we were sort of broadening you know what we wanted to sort of experience, and and that that was something later that became something that really bonded us. But leading up to her death, I learned that she was snoring while they loudly, and sleeping in her own room, which I mostly learned from her daughter. 

But the way children just sort of chatter, and and because of the work that I do, I have spent, you know, the past 20 plus years in medical devices and on the investing side, and one of the things I had most recently done was co-founded a business that makes medical devices for the treatment of obstructive sleep apnea, and snoring is the leading symptom of sleep apnea. And I also knew just from spending time with Ginna that she was taking daily naps and she was moody and she'd and all of these are some of the most common symptoms of sleep apnea, and so I encouraged her to go get tested and I actually sent her the name of a local physician that she could, you know, do some diagnostics with, and you know I I don't know why she didn't get tested, but she didn't. You know she claimed to have had a conversation with her primary care doctor. It's interesting actually, in the case of sleep apnea it does tend to be more men than women who have it, but as a percentage, women are more under diagnosed. So doctors have it in their head that it's more men that have it, but actually many, many women do as well. 

And it's, you know, it's highly correlated with, you know, both being male, being a bit overweight, drinking sleep. I guess maybe I should explain sleep apnea is a condition that where the soft tissue in your throat falls back and blocks the airway when you're sleeping, and it's very dangerous because you stop getting oxygen. It forces your heart to have to work really, really hard to push around the oxygen that does have in the system, and it's highly correlated with cardiovascular disease and stroke and atrial fibrillation, diabetes, cancer, and so it's it's a serious condition and it's very common. There are about billion people estimated to have it in the world and 80% are undiagnosed. 

So we've got one Whoa, it's very very common and people just aren't aware of it and they don't know what to look for. And so, you know, I always like to take an opportunity to tell people what the symptoms are. So, yeah, daytime sleepiness, waking up, gasping, waking up with a dry mouth and snoring, those are. And and depression as well. So those are the big ones. And, you know, I would suggest to anyone if you've got any of those symptoms or it's often a bad partner who has them, usually the person who has it themselves isn't that aware of it for sleeping and hearing it and so to go talk to their doctor. I think the awareness of it is growing and the ease with which people can get diagnosed has gone up a ton. You can do a home sleep study now. It's really straightforward and and I wish my sister had, I mean you know that that's what I like. 

0:08:27 - Maya 

You're stealing the thoughts out of my headling because there's so many things that are going through my mind. I was like, yes, tell us what sleep apnea is, because I do feel like it's talked about a lot more now than even you know like five years ago, right, like people are aware of it. But I feel like, yeah, I think I automatically attribute it to men. I don't think about women, I don't think about women not having it. I just think we are like our husbands or what partners were like, oh, he snores so bad, like I got to go sleep on the couch or the other room or the guest room or something right, and that's kind of a joke, but it's actually very serious, and so thank you for defining that for us. But what I find so fascinating too about all of this is one the amount of people that have it to the amount of people that are undiagnosed, you know, with it. 

But then to go deeper and to go into your story, I find it so fascinating that you and I, we you know we obviously talk prior to this podcast, but you had shared with me that you had been in the medical arena for work, a co -founder medical devices. You knew about all of this and yet, bless her heart, Ginna did not actually go. That's really mind blowing. She did not go and get tested for this, so that must be quite frustrating and also confusing for you as the, as the sister in this right Having the knowledge. I'm sure that was like a moment for you. You know, you know. 

0:09:46 - Laing

I thought about it obviously a lot. Yeah, and how was it that? I mean just the irony, right? Of course I've spent my whole, you know, my career. I've put my professional life into, you know we've now at the company that I founded. It's a company called Persommness. We make oral devices to help people while they're sleeping. We've traded more than 250,000 people. I mean, you know, we've been very successful. It's a public company. You know, out there we've got great clinical data and I couldn't get her tested. But you know, that's actually very common and part of why I like telling the story is people are very resistant, even when and you know, maybe even more so when it's your sister, right? I mean, I always liked to joke that I used up my sisterly advice back in like 1988 or something. 

0:10:33 - Maya 

I love that. We have skills. I'm a big sister. I know like they don't like to listen to you and then they're like oh man, yeah Right. 

0:10:40 - Laing

So I think that there was some element of her being like you know, you have a hammer, I'm not going to be your nail. Just because you're in this field does not mean that I have what. What you know, I don't know. It's obviously unknowable at this point, but it's you know. Hopefully you know by telling the story and having other people also realize that it's, it's serious. You know, there's there's mild, moderate and severe sleep apnea and someone having you know, she ended up with they had to do an autopsy because it was such a shock that she died. I guess I explained that what happened there. 

But but she, you know, so hers was at sort of the tail. It was an extreme case of this, but it, it for sure, reduces quality of life and length of life for people, and so so it is worth paying attention to. But yeah, she, yeah, she was home, she was, you know, she had spent the evening with her husband. That daughter and her husband took my niece up to put her to bed and came down and she was at nature of the relation and on the couch and you know it wasn't clear if she, I think that she had fallen asleep and that just wasn't able to get her out of it. And so it's just heartbreaking because it's treatable, it's preventable and she's, you know, such an amazing person and, yeah, she was only 46. 

0:12:05 - Maya 

So that was my next question for you. So, yeah, so she was only 46 and this was back in 2019. And so this was just a normal evening in Nashville with the family and she fell asleep. And so what does that look like when somebody like so we hope God forbid if somebody goes through this? So her daughter noticed that she was snoring and sleeping in another room and tired throughout the day and she had these symptoms. She didn't get help and then this particular evening she fell asleep. But she, what does that look like when somebody goes through that? And I know that's kind of you know, graphic, but I do want people to be aware of this and understand. So her husband comes and finds her and she's what does that like? Do they take her to the hospital? Like, what did that look like? Lang, yeah, yeah. 

0:13:00 - Laing

She um well, also a backup. Another thing that is very common when I say daytime sleepiness her husband told me after the fact that she would fall asleep all the time. 

So, she would, just she was so tired. She was because, even if you're in bed for eight hours a night or whatever, if you sleep apnea, you're having these micro arousal, so you're not getting into the deep REM sleep, You're not getting quality of sleep, which is also why you then end up with, you know, some of the you know depression or moodiness or other kinds of mental health because, as you know, get enough sleep. 

0:13:34 - Maya 

Right. We should all know that at this point, if your body's not resetting every night. 

0:13:39 - Laing

And so um. So the fact that she had fallen asleep on the couch was, I totally comment right? I mean, that was, I think, something that was happening pretty regularly. She'd fall asleep in a chair. She felt, you know, just napping, sort of what the rest of us would think sort of inappropriately all the time. But I think when she came, I think that her color was off, I think that she looked very gray, and he called an ambulance and they came in. So it was the paramedics who found her, I think initially in atrial fibrillation, and then she was technically still alive when they found her and then she went into entral fibrillation and they just couldn't stabilize it. They couldn't get her rhythm back. Often when someone's in a hip, they can. 

0:14:25 - Maya 

But and can you define what AFib is for those of us who don't know what that is? Can you define that first Sure. 

0:14:31 - Laing

So atrial fibrillation is? It's basically an irregular heartbeat. It gets your electrical signals start getting out of whack and you can't get the heartbeat back to a sort of sustainable, relaxed state. And so so, yeah, so it's, but that you know, because it was such a shock. I mean, you know, yes, I knew that she snored and yes, I was trying to get her help, but never in a million years dawned on me that she might die. I mean, like that me this day. 

if that was something I was really thinking about, I would have gotten on an airplane or whatever, but so this was a somewhat unusual chase in that regard, but you know so, and nobody, nobody, knew what was going on, like we literally could have been anything at that point. I mean, our whole family was like whoa, whoa, whoa. What happened? And the state, you know, when something happens like that, where it's this unexpected unexpected younger person dying, they require an autopsy, which, for anyone who's gone to, what a hellish process to wait, not knowing. 

I mean, I think, the state of Tennessee, or at least the county. I think I know more about the you know her county's coroner's office than I ever hoped to. But you know it took, I think it was, 16 weeks I mean 16 weeks is a really long time to not know why someone had really died. I mean, you know, like you know, was there something else going on? 

0:16:05 - Maya 

Yeah, all something I've learned on this journey to laying is in my own experience, my own, oh my God. Mine was years, years. 

0:16:12 - Laing

Wow. 

0:16:13 - Maya 

And it was insane. And there's people that have been on the show and even on this particular season, where it was months to a year, like it's crazy. So, yeah, I mean 16 weeks. That's insane, it's insane. 

0:16:26 - Laing

And it's very when you're you know, of course I've always said, like you know, in a vacuum you fill, you fill it with bad things. You know tend to be like oh, everything must have been great, and so you're thinking all your brain is going all these horrible things that could have you know, would have you know and so you know, it turned out she, they found that she had an enlarged heart and that's very common for people who have sleep apnea because of what I was explaining before. 

You know, when you don't have enough oxygen, your muscles working that much harder and the heart is muscle and it and that that in and of itself the thickening of the heart which would create a risk. So you know, it was just so sad, just so so sad. So take us back to that night again Lang when that happened. 

0:17:10 - Maya 

So obviously they take her to the hospital and her husband I'm assuming her husband called you. What was that like? Because we all have that memory of the call. Like that's why first episode in season one is the call and it's so interesting because every single guest I have on talks about the call that they get right and that's kind of a big moment. Is that who call? I'm assuming that's who called you and told you what was going on. Can you tell us a little bit about that? 

0:17:34 - Laing

Sure, it's funny. Actually I was just thinking about it this week. I was at a restaurant and I got the call and I was back at that restaurant just week, in the same room, and you know, it's just Weird. 

0:17:46 - Maya 

Wow, I know we're talking about it. 

0:17:48 - Laing

And so, yeah, my fall. I was out for dinner with my husband it was during the holidays, so early December, and we were out. It was a Saturday night and we were south for a nice dinner a busy restaurant and my phone rang and I could tell that it was a Nashville area code, but I didn't come up with a name. I thought that's weird and you know, my husband is somebody who if he doesn't have the name pop up, he doesn't answer it, for whatever reason. I'm one of those people. I do because I'm a little bit more neurotic. 

0:18:23 - Maya 

Me too. It's fine, I do the same thing yeah. 

0:18:26 - Laing

It picked it up and made me say he was really upset. And I just remember standing up and being like, hang on, hang on, I need to get to a place where I can hear you. Because I had to walk through the restaurant, through the bar part of the restaurant, and it was actually a restaurant in a hotel. So I walked out to the lobby of the hotel and, yeah, he did, and I at first I thought it was like a car accident, I thought something maybe had happened to my niece, like I just you know your brain is trying to put the pieces together, because it didn't make any sense. I was like what, wait, what Did she die? Like what, what, right, what? And so, yeah, for whatever reason, I've always been the type of person who, when there's an emergency, I tend to get super, super calm and super clear. And so I just I went into like okay, tactical. Like okay, what do we do? Like how do we get our? You know what are the four corners of this? Like how do we manage this? 

And I remember saying to the hostess of the restaurant I was like I need you to go get my husband, tell him it's an emergency and to bring my bag and he came out and you know, by then I was sort of wrapping up the call with my brother-in-law and I was sort of sitting there and he's like Lang, we need to go home. And I was like great, we need to go home. And I was obviously just shocked and so, yeah, my brother-in-law had, we had talked, and I said would it be helpful? I had to be talked to my parents, and he said no. I said would that be helpful if I called them? He said it would. And so it was late at night. You know I live in California and I was. You know it was late-ish. You know it was evening here and on the East Coast where my parents were. My parents are, as I mentioned earlier, of course, remarried, and so it was late there and so I spent quite a few hours trying to get to them. It wasn't that easy to get through to them. 

0:20:47 - Maya 

Of course. I mean like, how can you rest after that? It's like, I mean, sleep was a thing. That was not my friend for a very long time after getting the call and going through all of that, and I really connect. 

I think a lot of the listeners, you guys, obviously will connect with this too, because it's an often a thing that we hear that when we're the person that gets the call or we're kind of in, you know, in the mix of this, you kind of go I love how you said that in tactical mode, like you do, because it's just like okay, like I've got to, I've got to take care of this, like this is huge, like and it's interesting because different people respond in different ways. But I really connect with you on that. Like that was my mode too, and I think that's the case for a lot of people especially that listen to the show and that come on this show because that was kind of your role in the loss of your sister, right, it's like okay, like we got to figure this out. So did you guys end up going to I'm assuming, to Nashville or what would? Did you guys have a celebration of life? What were next steps for you? Because that's also a big part of your story, I'm sure. 

0:21:48 - Laing

Yeah, so so the first step was I went to New York because I wanted to make sure my parents were okay, sure, and so I did that and I was really happy to be there with them and you know, I think, like great traditions, like planing Services, like that, you know, they give you a way, something to do, and so my mom in particular, was very involved with that. That was very important and really wanted to honor my sister as best we all could. I mean, there were all these questions like do you bury her? Things, that maybe it was somebody who was older and you had a little bit of preparation and thought and discussions, but obviously it was somebody 46. 

0:22:42 - Maya 

You're not typically having those conversations, yeah. 

0:22:44 - Laing

Right, and so there were some decisions to be made, there were things like that, and so then I ended up. It was also a weird coincidence my mother-in-law had had a long bout of Alzheimer's and, coincidentally, had died 10 days before. 

0:23:03 - Maya 

Oh, wow, yeah. 

0:23:05 - Laing

I know, and she died I think it was a couple of days before Thanksgiving and so the family had decided let's wait and get and because they wanted to have a nice service and whatever, but it was not a good week to be trying to get her friends to go. You know, people were entertaining their own families. So they had already picked a date for her service in Minnesota and, coincidentally so, my sister service was on Saturday in Nashville and we flew straight from Nashville to Minnesota for my mother-in-law. So I mean it was wow, it was a week. I mean I got back in force from New York to California, then to Nashville. 

You know spoken of my sister's service, which my parents had asked me if I would do and I was happy to. It was that was hard, that was really hard and she had a big sorry, you know, and I think there were 500 or 600 people at her service. It was a big, it was a big beautiful church at Nashville and I remember beforehand having to be alone because there were so many people who came and wanted to see me and whatever, and I was like I kept having to pull myself out. I would go like hide in the bathroom because I was like I can't cry, like I have to get up and talk to 500 people Right? 

0:24:24 - Maya 

No, I get it. 

0:24:25 - Laing

I totally get that Once you get up this is going to be a mess, and so I. So I had to, and I would say to a few people like I'll talk to you after, but like I can't right now, and and so I was sort of staring at the ceiling and trying to keep my eyes open, and so it all went. I'm really happy that I did. It was a great sort of honor to be able to tell people about her, but but it was hard to that's a question that comes up a lot, lang. 

0:24:54 - Maya 

So I'm really glad that you brought that up and thank you for just being so raw and open about that, because I get this question a lot when people are watching like lives or join our support group or something very early right, like I'm shocked that some people who join these groups, like a day after their loss or the day of their loss, I'm like whoa, you are way more advanced than I was Like who knows to you. But they'll ask me those questions Like what is your opinion? What do you think? Do you think I should speak? And I'm like it's so personal. You have to decide like what's right for you, like for me, it was right for me. 

I had the most to say, I wanted to do it, I wanted to write the olja, I wanted to speak, and it was a celebration of life. It was very different. It was not a church, it was not, but that I, that was important to me. So I appreciate you sharing that part of your story too, because that's that's a story that a lot of people like have to, you know, go through as well, and a part of their story and 500 to 600 people, that's a lot. It's very intimidating and it's like you have to figure out what's right for you. And sometimes people will come back to me and say, well, you know what, I did write it, but I had someone else read it. I'm like that's totally cool. That's totally cool. You have to decide what's right for you, but it's. I love how you explained it, because you said it was an honor and it was beautiful for you to do that, and that's how I feel. I would have regretted it for sure if I didn't. 

0:26:09 - Laing

Wow yeah, and I think I was also fortunate in that I do some speaking for my work, so I had also been framed in a particular way so that I kind of had to like get out of my body and just I looked at it as a job. 

0:26:26 - Maya 

I have a job to do. You know, I'm right, you compartmentalized a little bit right and you were like I had to do so hard because it's so emotional, like you were. 

0:26:34 - Laing

I think I can prepare you for that. 

0:26:36 - Maya 

I prepare you for that. 

0:26:37 - Laing

I got I got about 80% of the way through and then I at one point I kind of cracked and I was like oh, no, no, no, no, give back it. And I was able to finish it, but I got back to my, you know, to the pew and that's when you released yeah, so yeah, yeah, no, I think that's that's an important part. 

0:26:58 - Maya 

And that's why I like to talk about these elements of the process, because everybody's story is a little bit different. So, yeah, I think, um, yeah, it's hard, it's hard to compartmentalize that, but if you do speak for a living or part of your job, I think it can help for sure. 

0:27:13 - Laing

But nothing prepares you for this right now, not, I mean you know both sides of the family and just right, so and and such really different. You know one she'd been ill, my mother-in-law had, you know she was, you know, fairly old and you know she's in her 80s and she had lived a swamp, beautiful life and she, you know, had this very slow decline and, you know, with Alzheimer's, I would imagine that he would end up talking about this some too. It's such a different death. I mean, it's really the grief, I don't know the culturally we are well set up for that kind of grief. Where my husband in particular, he grieved his most intense grief was three years before she died, like when she anticipatory, anticipatory, it's totally different. 

And when she forgot who he was I mean that, when she couldn't make that connection, that was when the big loss right, your mommy doesn't know who you are Like, I mean, that's just like the most poor. And yet so, by the time the service came along, the family helped largely, said goodbye, right. So we, you know, they've had years to say goodbye, and so it was just a really different. Yeah, we both. We went to two funerals, but they were night and day different events. 

0:28:36 - Maya 

And I had no idea you had this other loss in such a short period of time too. So I'm so glad we're talking about this thing because it is so different and it is something we do talk about on the show, you're right, and in anticipatory grief it's interesting because it's like you go, like you described it beautifully, and like what your husband went through. He went through like initial like this, probably his initial call when he, when he found out like we talked about that, like when he found out she had you know this was happening, and then what she forgot was those are all those anticipatory grief losses. It's almost like I like to always say, like again, I'm no therapist, but I've just listened to so many of these stories and done so much of this now that like it's like you have all the losses kind of front loaded in that type of loss, right, it's interesting, so that when the actual you know you lose the physical body of the individual that you love and especially if they've lived a long life, you're kind of like this is really sad and I'm going to mourn this and I'm going to grieve this. 

But I've already grieved so much on the front end a little bit, which is totally different than the experience of like what happened with your sister and my brother, which is sudden loss, where it's like it's a rug has been pulled out from underneath you. I mean, I sometimes I like to say the earth has been pulled out from underneath you because you have so many things to work through, post versus you know, and not to say that there's not grief. That happens after, with anticipatory, because now they're gone, they're actually gone, but now you have to deal with everything after a sudden loss. So I think this is very interesting to highlight both of these. So thanks for sharing that, because that's how I see it at least. 

0:30:09 - Laing

Yeah, no, that was very much my experience and it, yeah, it was, but it was and it was. There was something nice about having what was a little bit more of a celebration at hers and to have so many people together and and maybe to have the focus shifted a little bit. I needed it was almost, like, you know, out of the corner, I don't know how it was a little more oblique, like I. There were people there to support us but it wasn't quite so dead center on on my sister and when I was really dealing with it it was interestingly helpful. You know, another thing I I don't often talk about but I had, but it's relevant to this I had another friend who I was very close to die the winter after. 

So he died I guess in February after my sister died and he but his death was different. He had cancer that had he had treated it, it went into remission and then it came back really in January and got. He got very sick and so I was able to go visit him a lot in January and it was really helpful for me to be able to say goodbye to him the way that I didn't get to with my sister, that that it granted me the, the journey that I had not been given and and it was beautiful to see him and spend the time with him, and but I had a parallel thing going on that I needed to as well. So I've I feel a particular closeness with him in that, interestingly as well. So it was a lot of it's a lot of loss. 

0:32:04 - Maya 

Well, you're giving me chills, like because they do say it happens in threes, and I'm like, oh my god. Whenever anybody tells me that they just lost someone, I'm like, oh god, you know, I never want that to be true, but it really was for you and it was for me too, and it's very eerie because I had a similar experience. I were recording this at February 1st night, I know, but in exactly this time is when I lost a really good friend to cancer as well. So I just lost my brother in November and then in 2016 and then February 2017, he had prostate cancer and so similar thing, and I had a very similar experience to you. 

So this is very weird that you're bringing this up and really cool, very similar experience and his best friend and I are still very close to this day and it's because he so both of them are quite older than me. They were actually the friend that passed was a friend that mentored me through my career, and so this was really tragic and he was quite young. He was actually around the same age as your sister when he passed from this. I mean, like that's really young and so same kind of experience and it's bonded me with his best friend, like we're best, he's one of my best friends, he takes care of me like his little sister now, and you're right, it's like having a parallel experience, though but it's it can be quite healing, because you're like, okay, I didn't get to say goodbye in that type of way to my own sibling, but this particular person and I never had anybody come on the show before and like be able to relate to that, so that's pretty cool, that's actually kind of cool. 

But I experienced, and then I lost a good friend a couple months after that too, and in a totally sudden way, and that kind of brought everything back up for me, right? So it's very interesting how the different types of losses affect you along this journey. So, lynn, I want to get into this. So talk to us about your journey, because so that was a beautiful part of your story that you shared with us, this friend that you lost and you got to spend some time with. But, like you said, you're on a parallel journey, you're moving through grief, you're going into the pandemic too, like this is like a lot, a lot, right. So talk us through your, your kind of your grief journey as this deriding sibling and going into your first year, second year, and what was that like for you? 

0:34:22 - Laing

Yeah, the timing was, was a huge part of it, both in a, interestingly, in a good and a bad way, you know, we, you know she died December of 19, went into lockdown March of 20. And so the downside clearly was well, maybe let's start with the upside. The upside was everything slowed down a little bit, you know so, the time, the ability, you know, the space to heal. There was a little bit more of that because everything just went right Like down side was that, you know, it would typically have been a year where we spent a lot of time together as a family and you know the healing, and we were so fortunate that we were able to get together for our service and have all of those people together and that was really meaningful. 

And I thought so much about the families during COVID that didn't get that and just, I wanted double loss. That's a really hard thing, I would imagine. I was really cognizant of that and of course, you know, my niece, who was young and wanting to, you know, be with her, my parents, who were old, are, you know, worrying about them getting sick and I, you know, I just was so frightened, what if we have another loss here? That just felt unbearable, you know, when I was worried about my parents getting sick and some of the things that some of the decisions that they would sometimes make, like, for instance, my niece would come stay with them because they were worried about her. But then of course I was worried well, what if she's sick and gets you as? And I was like I can't, I don't know that I can handle more. 

0:36:18 - Maya 

Beth, I don't know, that is a huge thing that you're bringing up right now, lang. I love this. This is something that comes up a lot too is, once we go through such a significant loss, like our sibling, this fear that we're going to lose. Who's next? Who's next, what's gonna happen next? And so you're giving me chills a little bit, because this is something that I personally experienced. 

I know a lot of you guys listening, asked me about this and want to talk about it. Like, is this normal? And thank you for normalizing this and talking about this, because it is totally normal and it is a normal fear. And how did you kind of push through that, lang? How did you kind of get to the other side of that? Because that's a natural feeling to feel through COVID anyway, right, you've got a young niece that's going to visit and your elderly parents and you're like, wait a second here, like we don't know about all of this stuff yet, but there's so all the existential fear of I mean like, yeah, wiped out, I mean you know those are all elevated going through a loss like this, right, I mean it was all of it. 

0:37:19 - Laing

So it was really intense. And I had a young business that I was needing to make sure survived COVID, and that was, you know, taking up some brain space. And then I had my own two children, who were teenagers, who were home and you were reading all about teenage depression and isolation and issues. So there are all sorts of things going on and, you know, honestly, falling apart just never felt like an option. It was you got to keep everything together here, but I did need help. 

I was really fortunate in right after my sister died, my husband found both of us because we were both dealing with grief a Greek counselor who we were talking to and she was phenomenal, and so I had someone to talk to. So you know, I'm an enormous believer in that. And then I had this desire to do something creative. I actually originally was like, well, we're gonna make jewelry or sculpture, or I wanted to make things. I had this sort of instinct and I had no tools and no talent, and so I ended up reading a book called the Artist's Way, which has been around for 25 years. 

0:38:41 - Maya 

It's a very well-known book. 

0:38:42 - Laing

yes, and I had heard about it for years. My husband had done it, you know, sort of gone through it 10 years prior and I finally had the time. And you know, one of the main things that she suggests is that you do something called she calls morning pages, where you get up and before you do anything else, you write three pages every day. And I'm a little rural follower and so I went through. It's a 12 chapter book and one chapter a week. I went through the whole thing exactly as prescribed and I'd never been a journal or a writer. I really didn't think of myself as a writer at all and it all of a sudden just floodgates open. I just started writing and writing and writing, and I ended up writing what I wasn't thinking of at the time but really was poetry, and so I ended up really just expressing a lot. 

I was spending a lot of time outside. I lived, as I had mentioned, in Southern California, a really beautiful area, and so we were walking every day out and because it was the pandemic you know what streets are normally, you know buzzing with cars and all that we could walk down the middle of the road. So to get to really slow down in that different way of just very, you know things that you would normally see rush past you or all of a sudden you can stop and look at them and you know. You smell things and you see things and you hear things, and you know there's electric blue skies, you know where there's no pollution, and so I had a lot of nature imagery going through it. So I ended up writing a lot of nature poetry, and so that was a lot of what I did, and you know, after a little while I ended up pulling it all together and it became a book that I put out. I was published in May of last year, and so it's so exciting Congratulations, and so I had. 

you know it's been a really cathartic kind of experience to be able to, you know, both honor my sister and sort of honor the process of going through the grief and then also be able to sort of talk about the things that were helpful to me. Because you know I'm sure a lot of your motivation for doing this is, if you have to go through this, the best you can come out is connecting with other people and helping other people, right it's. 

0:41:18 - Maya 

I agree completely. 

And I love that about your story and what you did. So I want to go back for a second, because I think we should tag the artist way in here too. Because what's interesting? I read that book a long time ago. It's been around for a long time and for me I was going through another difficult time in my life and I'm a little bit different. I've always been a journaler. I was an English major, so that's like been my life. I've been journaling since I was like six years old and I have all my journals, which is a fun fact because you know all my journals. 

It's really crazy, but I've been an avid journaler and what was interesting for me is when I went through a couple of dark times in my life I stopped and that was horrible for me because it was it's such an outlet for me and that's why, like you said, this is a great outlet for me and talking is a great outlet for me. But I have always been a journaler and so I noticed that pattern and that pattern happened in my twenties when I was going through a difficult time and I read that's when I read the artist way and started with the three pages again and then I was off to the races. So I really connected that part of your story too. And it's a great book to kind of jumpstart you if that's something you're wanting to do, because anybody can do three pages. Anybody can do three pages in the morning, like you can do it. It makes it start to seem like achievable to write or whatever. 

But I think in your story what's so beautiful too is that it's a great message for all of you guys listening, because sometimes I have people that come to me and they're like, oh God, I wish I would have started this podcast or I wish I would have done, like written a book, like some of the people that call on the show, right? 

Or I wish I would have done. And I think what we need to understand is that we all grieve differently, we all grieve on a different timeline and we all have our own outlets. And what I really love about your story, lang, is that you were like I really need to get this out of me creatively and like put it out there, but I'm not really sure what that looks like because I don't feel like I'm creative. Well, you are creative, right. You were like I have no talent. Well, you clearly do. You published a book, right, so it's in us. And if you feel, I feel like one of your messages here is if you feel it in you, like that is that's there, right, like it's, it's going to come out, and so exploring that is worth it. And I think we can't just pigeonhole ourselves into like one form of expression of grief, like I think it's going to be different for everybody. 

0:43:41 - Laing

Yeah, interesting. I just this week heard a talk. There's an organization called the Foundation of Art and Healing or Foundation for Art and Healing, and one of the big promises is you know well, if there are a few that you know in art you are making something and typically when you're making something you get into a flow state which I think we all know, that that's a helpful place to be. It's very calming and and allows you to sort of remove yourself from the sort of the here and now emotions and reactions. But then also, when you're making something, then you end up with what you know he was calling an artifact. So you have a thing and that thing becomes well often it is expressing something that you might have hard time just describing to someone else or saying out loud or whatever. So you've got that piece. But it's also a thing that then you can go share with other people and allow for that connection. And then that connection you know feeds you and helps with the healing. 

And I found you know the talk by by the fellow who was doing it to be. He was the founder of this organization, to be it. It was so much the process that I found in my in, in grieving that it was just interesting. He's a professor at the Harvard School of Public Health. I mean, you know he's at it from a very sort of scientific, you know data driven perspective. But I had empirically ended up at a very similar place and, and just and I do, I think that take the creative process of taking something that involves this emotion in you and to be able to take it out, roll it around, pull it apart and then make something and have it be generative and positive and a reflection into the world. Even if it's, even if the art itself is dark, it's positive in that it's new and it's and it's out there, and so I do think it's hurry. It was Unlike anything that I had known before. It was something, yeah, probably 50 years old, but I learned it, so hopefully, that's cool, though. 

0:45:47 - Maya 

I love that part of your story. 

Really are and I can understand why you would have connected with that conversation and with that particular individual in that organization, because I think that you know him coming from that kind of background but then talking about like what a cool kind of you know contrast. You know he's talking about things that are creative. I think that's really awesome. But, yeah, I think it's something that, again, I just really love and connect with with your story, because, you know, whatever you're kind of feeling and whatever you're being drawn towards, I just I think that's amazing. Tell us, show us your book too, and if you guys are just listening, you can see in the show notes will have it linked. So, yes, so tell us the name of your book, of course. 

0:46:26 - Laing

It's called Morning Leaves and the subtitle is Reflections on Laws, greed and Connection. It's all art and poetry. There's probably about close to 80 original paintings that were done. I worked with an artist named Kelly Lee Radding, who is a fine art painter, and she was an amazing collaborator, and so we worked through all of the art together, which would, you know, sort of another layer of doing something creative. And you know, it tells the introduction, tells this a little bit of the story that I was telling this morning about what happened with Ginna and then the process that I found helpful to get through healing. 

It's, it's a gift book, it's really for people I don't know for themselves as they work through it, but it's, it's, it's quite beautiful and so it's nice and something to give to somebody, you know, in blue flowers or, you know, with the sympathy card, that sort of thing. I'm finding that's a lot of how people are using it and it's been interesting to have a book like this. You know, because you think you, I approach it in one particular way, like I tend to sit down and read it, you know, front to back. But I get lots of comments from people that they're using it more as a meditation, that they'll leave it next to their bed and read one of the poems, you know, in the morning when they wake up or before they go to bed, and so it's, it's fun to have it have its own life and yeah, you show people sort of are incorporating it into their own. You know grief and life, and so it's. But I, but I guess I just want to say on the, you know the subtitles, I learned all these things that I didn't know before. So the subtitles really telling the reader what it's about, right. 

So morning leaves you know, there there's a lot of sort of double entendre and that, right, this morning, this is morning, like the time of day, but of course there's the other morning leaves. They're all botanical poems, so it's with the botanicals and then there's the leaving, the verb, and then also with Julia Cameron's morning pages, like the leaves of a book. So it's, there's a lot of meaning in the morning leaves title itself, but the reflections on loss, grief and connection. The loss and grief are fairly straightforward. But the connection for me was really the silver lining of all this, that the opportunity to meet people like you and you know so many people and hear different stories and connect with people that I otherwise really wouldn't have, and so you know, I tried it. 

I think it's sort of the most hopeful piece of this is that actually, out of loss, a different door opens for relationships and experiences that one otherwise have had, and so so I tried it. I think that the book you know some people worry that the book might be really sort of sad or like it's. It's not a sad book, it's. It's really much more sort of about sort of hope and healing and beauty, and you know that our own resilience in terms of getting through I love that. 

0:49:31 - Maya 

Yeah, I love that when we first connected, you were sharing some of that with me and I think one of the takeaways that I get from this beautiful book that you and I have a question to you about the kind of the process in a second, but want to point this out because I have a lot of authors to come on the show or connect or you know, like you said, these are not people that I ever probably would have met in my life and I think, you know, sometimes people have different opinions about you. Know, do you have to find a silver lining in grief? That's up to you. I think that's your journey right For me I had to, I had to and I feel lucky enough that these gifts just came to me right Also, just by doing the connection and reaching out there and putting my work out there, just like it's for you laying and for me, I do have to have a silver lining to it because then what was the point? Right? I mean, what was the point and meeting people like you and all the amazing people that come on the show, all of you guys who listen, like it's been some of the best people I've ever met in my entire life and I love that you have connection in the title because it's the some of the deepest connections I've ever had in my life, because nobody else understands what I've been through other than strangers that I've never even met in person, which is crazy. I feel so bonded to you guys so I love that you brought that up and I think there's another part of this tune when we were talking prior that you know again, I've had incredible authors on some of my favorite books I've ever read. 

Now I do find sometimes this is interesting because I was as I would recommend books or have people on especially early, like in the first year or two. It can be quite hard and it was for me. It took me like four or five years to really read a true sibling loss book and that's because that was part of my journey. In year five is when I started to think about the show and like start to create it and then I came to the mic, like I always say on the show, but that seems like climbing Mount Everest, almost like reading a full book, even like 100 page or 150. 

So I think that's really what's beautiful about your book is that if you're not ready for that, you can bite off a little piece, or you can meditate with a little piece and whatever sits with you. 

That's cool, and if you're not ready to read something again, put it down, come back to it in a week, come back to it in a month or whenever you want to, but it's not so much to digest at that time. So I really love the idea of having your book, because we had also talked about, you know, flowers are great, but they die and it's almost like you are watching the death process again. Right, and I love flowers you guys can always send me flowers, I love them, but but you know it's. It's an interesting thing and an interesting thing to look at the connection between life and death when you're going through it, and what a beautiful thing to give to someone that can digest at their own speed and process and use it in their own way. So I just wanted to point that out because I really loved that part of our conversation when we first connected, because it can feel a little bit big to read a full book, Right. 

0:52:33 - Laing

I was given stacks and stacks of books and I think I told you before I, you know, I've read a paragraph and I'm like I can't remember, I don't know what that said. And then I go back and I'd read it again and I'm like I have no idea what that just and I just couldn't. I wasn't in a place where I could read, and so, you know I I barely read any of those books, and so, yeah, I mean one of the things about this book is it has so much art that even if you're not up for reading, it has just beautiful imagery, and I think nature is so. 

0:53:04 - Maya 

That's what I love about this too. How did you connect with the artist real quick? I just want to make sure we have that on here too, because I think that's interesting. 

0:53:11 - Laing

Yeah, so, um, yeah, well, I mean, I was such an office. I you know where does one find a botanical artist? I mean it was how on so clearly begged for pink art of some sort, and so I figured out sort of the style that I wanted and I was like I don't really find a botanical. So what do you do? You Google it. So I Google all the you know botanical artists and well and behold, there's an American Society of Botanical Artists and I'm 500 members or something like that, and they all have little thumbnails of their work and I went through all of them and Kelly's work was my top choice and what I liked about her work. 

0:53:56 - Maya 

It spoke to you Like you saw it. 

0:53:58 - Laing

And what I really liked about her work was not only did it have, you know, beautiful flowers plants, but she also had, you know, the roots and the thorns and the drying leaves and that decay. And my text required somebody who got all of that, not just making it pretty, but you know, even on the cover you know you might not notice it, but there's a lemon, but there's also the thorn on the lemon and that's, it's the beauty and the sharp edges and it's, you know, all of that and how we all navigate, all of what makes life beautiful and rich. So I just reached out to her. I sent her a book. She said I have, and sent her the manuscript and she came back and said this is what I want to do. And you know, it's now been two and a half years and we talked, you know, or communicated nearly every day and never had a crossword and she's just been an incredible partner in all of this and just the talent that she has. 

0:55:11 - Maya 

It's just incredible. I mean, it's beautiful and you know again another part of your. You know your subtitle connection. You never have, probably ever, encountered her in your life had you not embarked on this journey. So it's no beautiful thing and I wanted to touch on that but really cool because I connected. That that's how I've connected with a lot of the people that have come on the show is just like going down these rabbit holes and connecting. It's really cool. 

0:55:35 - Laing

It's actually really cool aspect. No, it's really special, it's really nice so well, lang, tell us a little bit. 

0:55:42 - Maya 

Is there anything else that you would kind of share with us that maybe we didn't touch on before we close out today? Any pieces of advice? I mean again, it's just, it's such an interesting part of your story with Ginna that you were in this field, the medical device field, and had the knowledge but any, any piece of advice that you would give from that perspective kind of twofold, like if people are experiencing this and they would, you know, like to to help someone or order the signs, and then also on the other side, the second part of it as well, if you know, if we missed anything today, any advice you would go back and kind of give yourself on your grief journey. 

0:56:18 - Laing

Sure, um. So, first and foremost, on the sleep apnea side, um, on my website which is my first and last night line, rickerscom, I have a whole page on resources for sleep apnea. So if you know, you can always call your own doctor, your general practitioner, and ask about it. But if you don't feel like they're very well informed or getting the information that you want, there's a lot of information online Um and um, you know, and, and there's a way to contact me on my website. If somebody's really not going down a path that they're comfortable with, be happy I. I, on a very regular basis, help connect patients and doctors or people with questions. So that's, that's a standing offer. But talk to your doctor, that's always the best thing to do. 

Um, the other thing, I guess just sort of shorthand, what really worked for me was something that I've come to think of as um talk it, walk it, write it, and it had, you know, I. I used it in my Greek journey, but I've now used it also in other hard things happened in my life, I think. You know, talk it I. I was fortunate enough to have a really great, you know professional counselor who I could talk to, but, I think, just somebody who will listen, somebody who really take the time to let you articulate and digest what you've been through is helpful. And then the walk it. 

I think this stuff is so physical and so energetically draining to be able to, you know, walk, get to the gym, whatever it was. You know exercises, but to get it out of your body is really important. I think that trapped in your body does a lot of terrible things that stress to our bodies and um, so we want to stay healthier ourselves. And then the final right in my case it was writing, but I think anything creative, you know it could be dance or music or painting or whatever Um, I think those three things are really the key to staying healthy when you're going through something stressful. And so you know that's at least what, what's working for me. Everyone, as you say, everyone's journey is different, but yeah it. 

0:58:33 - Maya 

Everyone's journey is different, but when you shared that with me the talk it, walk it, write it I just loved that. So I love that we're kind of ending on that note because and that can look, however that looks right, like you said, I love that Like, for you and me both, therapy was integral, like it was. I'm such an extrovert but I wasn't going to like support groups or things Like I needed my therapist, I need that was my outlet. And so talk it, walk it, like, write it. I relate to that and for me, you know, exercise was really important to me as well. 

Um, running was an outlet for me and that was, you know, everyone has their own thing, but it can be dancing, it can be fun, it can be TikTok, dance, like, whatever is. It works for you. Now, basically, we trap this stuff. So I just loved this and then the write it. I love that you say that too. It's what, like, we spoke about earlier in the episode, whatever that means to you about actually expressing it and getting it out, and I think that's just. I mean, like that's your quote laying, so laying, tell us where we can find you. Obviously, we'll put your website on here. You already talked about that, but if you could repeat that again. 

0:59:36 - Laing

And any social um social aspects to social media that you are on, yeah, yeah, so all all of the socials are also on my website, which is layingrickerscom, and then um on Facebook. It's author, laying rickers, um, I have a um Instagram, which is actually where I'm probably most active, which is morning underscore, leads, underscore and poetry. And then I'm also on LinkedIn, which has more information about um, call it my, my day job, my more professional medical device, um information and, you know, happy to connect with, with any of your listeners. So it's, it's nice to be a part of this community. 

1:00:16 - Maya 

We're so happy to have you on the episode. This was beautiful. Thank you, laying. Thank you for sharing. Thank you for writing the book. Um, thanks for being here with us today. Thank you so much for listening to the surviving siblings podcast. If you enjoyed this episode as much as I did creating it for you, then share it on your chosen social media platform and don't forget to tag us at surviving siblings podcast so that more surviving siblings can find us. Remember to rate, review and subscribe to the podcast, and don't forget to follow us on all social media platforms. Share on Instagram, twitter and tick talk at surviving siblings podcast. All links can be found in the show notes, so be sure to check those out too. Thank you again for the support. Until the next episode, keep on surviving my surviving siblings.