Elizabeth DeVita Rayburn - The Empty Room: Surviving the Loss of a Brother or Sister At Any Age

[00:00:00] Welcome to the Surviving Siblings Podcast. I'm your host, Maya Roffler. As a surviving sibling myself, I. I knew that I wanted to share my story, my brother's story. I lost my brother to a homicide in November, 2016, and after going through this experience, I knew that I wanted to share my story and his story, and now it's your turn to share your stories.

[00:00:36] Maya: Hi guys. Welcome back to the Surviving Siblings Podcast. I have an incredible author here today with us. She wrote her book. We're coming up on almost 20 years, Elizabeth. So today I have Elizabeth DaVita Rayburn. Hi Elizabeth. Welcome to the show. 

[00:00:56] Elizabeth: Hi. Thanks for having me. 

[00:00:58] Maya: I am super excited to have you here, Elizabeth. It's you're approaching your 20 year anniversary of putting out your book about your brother Ted, and we're gonna learn a little bit about TED today.

[00:01:07] So I'm gonna hand it over to you if we can dive in and learn a little bit more about you and Ted, and then we will tell obviously your sibling law story.

[00:01:17] Elizabeth: Okay. There's me and Ted before he got sick, and then there's me and Ted after I was six and he was nine when he was diagnosed. Before that we had the. Pretty typical sibling relationship. I was the annoying younger sister. I looked up to him immensely. He was always like this creative, brilliant, fun, older brother I got on his nerves, but and we got along too.

[00:01:43] Yeah, and it was funny 'cause I was sharing stories recently of just things I'll remember him. We had to sit like astronauts in the backseat of the car with our legs up the back and our backs on the seat. This was back in the days when nobody wore seat belts, 'cause I'm ancient things like that. other games he would create.

[00:01:59] So it was just I was starstruck as a kid with him. So 

[00:02:04] Maya: Yeah.

[00:02:04] Elizabeth: that was who we were before. 

[00:02:08] Maya: So tell us a little bit about what it was like and it's, it was just you and Ted, right? 

[00:02:13] Elizabeth: Yeah. 

[00:02:14] Maya: Just wanted to confirm that's what I remember. And tell us a little bit about what it was like when he got sick, his diagnosis. Share a little bit of that, if you don't mind, Elizabeth.

[00:02:26] Elizabeth: There are things that. I don't remember much having been sick about exactly how it unfolded, and there are things that I've been told since then. But basically the story is my dad is an oncologist and worked a lot on the, leukemia floors at one point in his career. And apparently we were sitting at dinner one night, just about the time that school would start.

[00:02:45] And my mom looked down and my brother was wearing shorts and he had bruises all over his legs. Which she thought were just bruises. And she said, oh, something like, would you look at that? He's got more bruises. And my dad looked down at his legs and knew those bruises. 'cause there's very specific type of bruises with blood diseases are cancers particularly, but some other anemia.

[00:03:05] So he took him to the hospital the next day. And within a week I think he'd been diagnosed with aplastic anemia, which is an immune deficiency disorder. I believe it's considered autoimmune now. And at first, and I remember this part they brought him home and they were like some special like soaps and protocols.

[00:03:24] They were supposed to be using this, keep him as clean as possible and not susceptible to germs. 'cause the risk was, he's, he didn't have an immune system at that point, and very low functioning immune system to fight off any infections. So I think that the idea was to keep 'em home and try and keep 'em as safe as possible and not exposed a thing.

[00:03:41] And if something happened, the plan B was that they would bring 'em to the hospital. And at that point they had created these new, what are called laminar airflow rooms at the hospital and the cancer wards with their sterile rooms. And at that point, chemotherapy was new and they would use it on patients.

[00:03:55] They would knock out their immune systems. So they wanted to protect them. They put 'em in these rooms until their immune system rebounded. So my father being part of the N I H and not that whole system and working on oncology, they thought we can put him in one of those rooms if we have to. To protect him.

[00:04:11] So I, I think within a week he had spiked a fever and they brought him in and put him in the room. And thereafter he lived in this laminar airflow room at the n I h on the 13th floor. And that went on for eight years. 

[00:04:25] Maya: Wow. 

[00:04:27] Wow. And so he was there for eight years.

[00:04:31] Elizabeth: He was there for eight years. And it was like a, it was like a room divided in half by a curtain a clear plastic curtain. And on one side, on his side, there was this laminar airflow system built into the wall that had this constant air pressure that would blow any germs out. There was an open doorway, but he couldn't walk out it, and that was this airflow system kept.

[00:04:52] The pressure of the air kept any sort of circulating germs, bacteria, anything on the other side. So we would sit in the other half, his half was like 10 foot by 10 foot. Other half might have been a little bit smaller. there were a few chairs. And that's where my family, it would be me and my parents spent basically, my mother was every day and then my dad.

[00:05:09] And and I also would go in the evenings. And so that became like the family room for the next eight years.

[00:05:15] And he was not allowed to leave except at one point. Somebody created this sort of spacesuit that he could put on that had an air pack that delivered sterile air. So on occasion he could go out wearing that. 

[00:05:29] Maya: Wow. This is a really, so you were so young, Elizabeth, when do you remember like first going there? 'cause I look back at six and I'm like, gosh, I don't have a whole lot of vivid memories. Like 

[00:05:40] from when the, that age, we have like specific things like maybe we remember a specific Christmas or a birthday or a holiday or something like that.

[00:05:48] But you don't remember a whole lot. Do you remember when you it hit you that you were going all the time to see your brother, or was it just ingrained in you that we did this? This is a part of our life.

[00:05:58] Elizabeth: I think it's mostly ingrained in me. I look back, I have a few memories before then, but mostly I remember the routine of it. This was just family life. I don't remember seeing him in the room for the first time. I remember my parents, this must have been, the night that they brought him in, telling me that he was gonna be in the hospital for a while, but not explaining what that meant.

[00:06:18] But I don't remember seeing him for the first time. I just remember that this was the way life.

[00:06:22] was. 

[00:06:23] Maya: Yeah. Tell us a little bit about when, so when he was able to leave, he was in this like bubble type of situation. What were there special occasions, like what warranted him being able to leave? Because I can't imagine like being in the same place for eight years, but that's so interesting to me about his story.

[00:06:44] Elizabeth: I think that suit came into probably maybe when he was 14, 15, 16. He died when he was 17. And one of the big uses for it was to go to concerts. And my brother was a musician. He loved to play guitar, and he was, trapped in this tiny room, right? So he had a, like three guitars in there that he played all the time, and he was really good.

[00:07:04] And somehow the. The man or the couple that owned the capital center, which was the big sort of concert venue in our area, learned about him. And this couple had lost, I think two children too, like a heart defect at that point, and had a soft spot for kids who were sick or struggling. And they offered him the use of a Sky suite anytime you wanted to hear concerts.

[00:07:24] And so this became a routine that, he'd put the suit on and he we'd go to these concerts. At a young age I was going to Led Zeppelin concerts and. Hanging out with him and this guy. Yeah, we saw, I saw some cool.

[00:07:35] bands and the funny thing was that, he used to stay up all night.

[00:07:39] And listened to the radio. He had a CB radio, like he had his ways of connecting with the world and he got friendly with this one local dj and he was probably 15 and this guy was like in his late twenties. And this guy started to come to visit Ted and became a friend. And he had this like incredibly tricked out van.

[00:07:55] So this is the seventies, right? So it's like leopard skin carpet, all over the inside. And it was just pretty. Pretty crazy. And so he would drive us all to the concert in his van with a couple of my brother's friends. And Yeah.

[00:08:07] It was quite a scene. 

[00:08:09] Maya: Yeah, what you really painted an image there. I'm like, wow, that's really cool.

[00:08:14] Elizabeth: Yeah. He also went to some drive-in movies. And we went to a Star Trek convention once with him in the suit, and he totally blended in. That was the one place that nobody stared at him wearing the suit because they all thought it was a costume. Yeah. 

[00:08:27] Maya: Wow. 

[00:08:27] Elizabeth: I remember we got in an elevator once and someone gave him like this box sign, with the hand side.

[00:08:32] He just gave it back and that was, low key. 

[00:08:35] Maya: Yeah. So he was lighthearted about it when he went out in his

[00:08:39] Elizabeth: He was, again, I was a kid. I don't remember him seeming to struggle with it. It must have been difficult. But he either wanted to go out so badly or he was just a tough kid. There's a lot about him. I'm still trying to figure out about how he was able to do what he did because he was not at all a victim.

[00:09:00] He was funny. He is, I've talked to people's sense about him and they all took about his sense of humor and his witt and intelligence. Yeah he really somehow, We just welcomed the world. Any way he could get it. 

[00:09:15] Maya: Yeah. Was he like doing classes and stuff? This is many years ago, and so it's, we didn't have pandemic, zoom at the time. So what was his life like, like with school? I'm so curious about this and I'm sure you guys are as well.

[00:09:29] Elizabeth: So yeah, they had a couple of tutors that worked for the hospital and I think, usually these were people who would help kids keep up, who were out for a month or two or something like that. It was unusual that it was over the course of something like eight years.

[00:09:39] But, these two teachers in particular just became like family and knew him so well. So that way it was these two teachers in particular who came every day and worked with him. And there was a time, I think when he was not very cooperative. He had a stubborn streak and then he just decided at one point he was gonna be a student and it just turned it around.

[00:09:57] But he was interested in something. He was like very deep divey and fascinated by it. And so these teachers knew him well.

[00:10:04] enough at a certain point to capture his interest and to work with him in a way that engaged him. 

[00:10:10] Maya: Yeah just based on what you're telling us about music and how he'll he was with music and the guitars, like he goes all in with 

[00:10:16] Elizabeth: Yeah, exactly. 

[00:10:17] Maya: I had a brother like that too, so 

[00:10:19] I get that. My brother had 10 guitars. It was insane. So yeah, he was very, like, when I get locked in, I get locked in.

[00:10:25] So I connect with you, Ted, already. I hear that. 

[00:10:28] I'm so interested about this diagnosis too, Elizabeth, because I think just educating people about this, so when you're diagnosed with this, you were so young, but I'm sure you've, talked about this now and I wanna bring a little light to this.

[00:10:42] What is the mortality rate for this? What, or do they not know a whole lot about it back then? Can you share 

[00:10:48] Elizabeth: It's a really rare disease. I think I put in my book that? it's more It's more common to get struck by lightning than to get this disease. Like it's 

[00:10:55] Maya: I remember reading that. Yeah. 

[00:10:57] Elizabeth: extremely rare. They, 50% of the times it's what they call idiopathic, meaning they don't know why it happened. In some cases, like I think after Chernobyl, I.

[00:11:07] Radiation exposure. There were a bunch of cases in that area. So there are some things they can point to. In Ted's case, they have no idea why. I think there have been some anecdotal reports of, it being connected in the wake of antibiotics and he had taken antibiotics within a month or two before his diagnosis.

[00:11:22] So it was like maybe that, and they, I literally learned that they autopsied our bird, our parakeet died within a couple weeks of him going into the hospital and they autopsy the bird. They, my brother used to do models. Those plastic models he'd put together with glue and his carpet was just full of glue and, there was, they speculated maybe it was the mono glue that they just really didn't know.

[00:11:44] The prognosis was terrible. Basically there was no treatment. And I. A certain percentage of cases, the immune system just started working again on its own, and they didn't know why. And so the idea was when he was sick and they put him in that laminar airflow around that, we'll buy him some time for his immune system to reboot.

[00:12:01] So they figured within six months it was gonna be one way or another. And neither thing happened. So he lived for eight years basically. And they. Transfused him a lot. That was the one thing in the hospital with like white blood cells and platelets and red blood cells. But that was ultimately his undoing.

[00:12:18] Because blood transfusions are full of iron. And that can build up in the system and build up and damage the heart. And cause heart failure, which is eventually what killed him, not the disease. Now there are better drugs so that they can make a blood transfusion last longer. Without having to transfuse so constantly.

[00:12:37] So there, there are different ways to control that now but that's what happened to him. Sometimes bone marrow transplants can work. Sometimes that's an option. I think there are better drugs now, but there, there really was nothing back in his day. So it was not only trying to buy him time, but to see at that point I know that my, my dad and his scientist friends were all like frantically scouring the literature to see if there was anything that, that might help or might work. 

[00:13:02] Maya: Yeah. 

[00:13:03] Thanks. Yeah, thanks for sharing that because I wanted to shed light on that. I do remember reading that in your book. It's so rare. So I wanted to bring awareness to this and just, and I think it's, interesting that, six months one way or the other. And you are eight years later.

[00:13:18] Elizabeth: Yeah. 

[00:13:19] Maya: He's a strong guy. He's a strong guy for sure.

[00:13:23] Elizabeth: Yeah. I don't know that he was my mom. It talks about him becoming that way. So I don't think, and he was a kid, he was nine. I think he, he really evolved into the person he became, through, through all his effort. I don't know where that came from or what the inspiration came from.

[00:13:39] I've thought about it since I started blogging during the pandemic about him, because I realized that we were all living a version of his life and we were all like miserable and complaining, 

[00:13:47] Maya: yeah. How fascinating. I didn't even think about that. 

[00:13:50] Elizabeth: Yeah.

[00:13:51] And I was like, how did he do it? I don't know how he did it, and again, I was a kid, so I started interviewing people who'd interacted with them who were adults.

[00:13:58] And one thing I remembered and somebody else talked about was that he got fascinated by prisoners of war. And there was one in particular came to visit him and I was like, wow, that makes sense. That really was his situation. He was obviously much more supported, not abused, as someone as a prisoner of war would be like, I don't.

[00:14:15] He had much better circumstances in some ways, but in terms of being confined and having his liberty removed from him, that's a pretty good analogy. 

[00:14:24] Maya: Yeah, I see, I just don't believe in coincidences in life and like why we're attracted to certain people or attracted to certain circumstances and yeah, of course, you guys loved him and were doing everything to help him, thrive and live the best life that he could, but at the same point, The only people that could really understand that.

[00:14:41] That makes sense to me too. Like prisoners of war, like you're stuck in a place you can't leave, there's nothing you can do. So it's interesting that he was attracted to that 

[00:14:49] Elizabeth: Yeah. 

[00:14:51] Maya: Fascinating. So you mentioned Elizabeth, that. So he eventually OB obviously passed away, but it was from the blood infusions and the iron.

[00:15:02] Can you tell us a little, was it sudden or did you guys know? Tell us a little bit about that 

[00:15:08] part of the story, which 

[00:15:08] Elizabeth: it, it was both. Apparently my father knew all along that this could happen and they were just anticipating when it might happen. I did not know, one of the experiences I think of being the healthy sibling is you're not told a lot, 

[00:15:23] Maya: Great point to bring up. Yes. 

[00:15:25] Elizabeth: I'm an empath by nature, but I'm unlike a super empath because I also learned to read people around me because I had to, 'cause no one was telling me anything, right?

[00:15:33] So I had to intuit a lot about what was going on. But in this case, I couldn't in intuit that piece of information. So I went on an exchange trip to Scotland when I was 14, and it was two weeks long. And at some point during that time, apparently he collapsed with heart failure. So they tried, supporting him in different ways and I guess they knew that they probably were not gonna be able to turn this around, and it was a matter of, how long it was gonna take.

[00:15:57] So I got home, I'm not even sure. I have to look at the dates. How long he'd been like that, probably a week. And then I was whole for maybe another week and a half before he died. And they just, couldn't. He had an enlarged heart that wasn't functioning at that part.

[00:16:11] there really wasn't much turning it around. So Yeah.

[00:16:14] It was sudden in the way it played out, but apparently to those, with medical knowledge anticipated 

[00:16:22] Maya: Wow. So did you, were you guys, did you all go to the hospital? Did you 

[00:16:28] like, was he awake? Were you able to say goodbye? Can you tell us a little bit about that? Or was it just, that was it and he was not with you anymore? What 

[00:16:37] was that like? 

[00:16:37] Elizabeth: it was it was pretty weird how it happened and since we have been talking about weird things a little bit, I'll tell you that part of it too. So I was 14 and my aunt had been staying with me. My parents were sleeping in the hospital over night and they were there all day and I was in and out.

[00:16:53] And I guess a family friend had taken me to the pool that day with their kids and they brought me back to the hospital. My aunt had. Just left to go back to her family. So I was there at the hospital. My mother was gonna go home with me that night and stay, and I was like, no, I wanna stay. So we were sitting in this little, teeny closet room, basically on these very hard hospital sofas.

[00:17:12] And I heard a code be called over the intercom. And this had been going on that, that his heart would skitter off, and an arrhythmia and they'd use the paddles on him and he hated the paddles. So he had learned to do this, like to meditate or breathing his way into getting his heart back into rhythm to avoid them.

[00:17:30] We heard the code called that. We heard the room, it was his room, and my dad said, this is it. And I was like, what it, 'cause no one had told me that the way it was gonna end. We went to his room and there was a doctor standing over him and I realized that we were watching him die like no one told me.

[00:17:46] What I was seeing or was gonna see. So I basically, it, I think I described it in the book as, basically the equivalent of watching someone get hit by a car because there was no preparation. There was just like watching him die and figuring out what I was saying. And it's interesting because over the years after that I thought a lot about whether it was worse or better for me, that I had been there to see that happen and.

[00:18:14] I'd had different feelings about that. Been all over the place. And then in my late twenties I moved to New York City and I got interested in the idea of mediums and, 'cause I had this sense of him around, but I was like, oh, it's just wishful thinking. How do I know I'm just being stupid? That kind of thing.

[00:18:30] Naive. And I didn't wanna live in that middle ground, so I was like, what's the harm? I'll go see a medium. And I, and my brother's story was a little notorious at that point, so I didn't give the woman my last name. First name. I didn't tell her any of my stories, so I went in and talked to her and the first person she brought up was clearly my maternal grandmother.

[00:18:48] And I was like, why are you here? It shocked me that someone other than him would come through, but she did. And she was like,

[00:18:57] I, I am trying to remember what she said about her, but she nailed her, like what had happened with her. And then she said, I'm feeling a male presence. He's young, he's a brother or a cousin, his initials are, and she got, put three letters out there. One of them was his initial and she said you were there the night that he died.

[00:19:17] He said he waited for you. You were meant to be there. I left that sessions with such a sense of peace about not only the continuation of his existence and, but that message and I know now that the reason that I was there was to keep me alive because I was so despondent after his death is so depressed.

[00:19:38] And, those of us who've had sibling loss know that nobody sees your experience. But I watched him fight so hard to live. And those last, I don't even know how long it took him to die. He had IVs in his feet and in his hands and a heart line in, and they, the doctor was giving him morphine to try and space him out.

[00:19:55] And because he was fluid was going into his lungs, he was having a hard time breathing and he just kept coming back. He was fighting so hard despite the fact that he lived in this tiny room. Despite the limitations of his life and despite the fact that he'd been so sick and had all these tubes in that when he was fighting to live, and I was like that was what I needed to see because I couldn't throw my life away.

[00:20:17] After having watched that so 

[00:20:20] Maya: Thank you for sharing that. That's so beautiful Elizabeth, and you talk about a lot of this stuff in your book too, but I don't wanna give too much of that away. I wanna get, get into the meaty parts, but, 'cause we want people to read your book of course too. 'cause I loved it. But I have chills 'cause we have not talked about this, you and I, but I saw a medium as well.

[00:20:38] And because of losing my brother to a homicide, like I just shut off everything spiritually. Like Elizabeth, I was like, show shut down. I was not open anymore. And in year four or five, somewhere in there, I can't remember now, it's all documented in the show. You guys like everyone that listens, you guys keep me straight now on where it is, but it all starts to blend together.

[00:20:57] Once you start the years start to go, but. I did the same thing. I'm like smiling as you're telling this. 'cause I did the same thing. I was so skeptical. I was like, because I was on television when my brother was killed, so didn't share my last name, sent it from like an email that like no one would know who I was.

[00:21:16] Nothing. And I met with this medium and the first person that came through. Were my, there was two people. It was my grandparents. It wasn't my brother. I was so expecting my brother and he nailed my grandparents, like I knew it was them. I 

[00:21:31] was. And then right after that he said the same thing to me.

[00:21:35] He was like, I his, he was explaining that his like motion for brotherly love is like when he sees like a guy behind you and they're hugging you high up. 

[00:21:46] 'cause they're protecting you. so fascinated by mediums now. I'm like, I'm, I believe it. 150%. There's a lot of bad people out there too, guys. So do your homework, 

[00:21:54] but 

[00:21:55] do your homework.

[00:21:56] But. He nailed it. He told me, he was like, explain the homicide, everything. He knew nothing. And when I left that he had messages for like my mom, my dad, my sister, me. It was really wild, and he was telling me stuff then. So I was like, oh, he got it about 85%. I can tell you confidently today he had it a hundred percent right.

[00:22:18] He was telling me things about friends and things like that, Elizabeth, that I didn't know, and they've come out of the woodwork since. I know what that feels like to get that reassurance that you 

[00:22:28] need, because I knew what happened to my brother was really, I knew it was a homicide. I knew it wasn't an accident, and they kept trying to say that, and he confirmed that For me, that helped me move forward in a way that I can't even explain.

[00:22:42] And so I really connect with what you're saying and going because it's like it's validation that you need sometimes in your story. 

[00:22:49] Elizabeth: it was, Yeah.

[00:22:50] it was. I just, like I said, I felt a sense of peace and I'm like, I don't have to wonder if he's around. I know it now. And that's okay. And now I make peace with the fact that he's in that other place and whatever, 'cause I do believe that we have continuing bonds and relationship with people.

[00:23:07] It, we've lost. So then it's a matter of how given the obvious limitations, right? They're not here physically. How do we go forward in our lives without them 

[00:23:16] Physically, so that became the process, not this sort of more confused 

[00:23:22] Maya: do you think was the turning point for you? Because you said so you lost him when you were 13, 

[00:23:26] Elizabeth: 14 

[00:23:27] Maya: 14, sorry. And he. He had been gone for a while when you went to see a medium from the earth, as I like to say, he had been gone from the earth, but it was just, yeah, that's what I like to say.

[00:23:38] Because I think they're with us still. 

[00:23:40] You were mentioning that you felt him around you. Was it, was there something significant that happened? Did you have a dream or did you see something, or was it just like that time you just felt it within yourself?

[00:23:49] Elizabeth: I think I felt it. I think I definitely had dreams. I can remember one in particular, and I'm trying to remember. Yeah, it was before I saw the medium I. I don't know if I can reconstruct it for you here. But he was, I can try. It's gonna sound really weird, but, 

[00:24:06] Maya: We love weird here. 

[00:24:07] We love it. 

[00:24:08] Elizabeth: okay. So I had this dream and I think he was in his coffin and my mother was there too, and I don't remember the entirety of it, but it was like there was a conversation.

[00:24:23] And we're are you comfortable or something? He's yeah I've got all this like padding and I'm like gonna make it.

[00:24:28] red. And my mother hates the color red. Like to her it's like garish. And 

[00:24:33] So 

[00:24:34] like my, yeah, 

[00:24:35] so he looked at he locked eyes with you when he said it. And then my mother does this like tsk sound that she made when you goaded her.

[00:24:41] And he used to do it all the time. And he was like, I'm just fucking with you. But it was, I, and I don't know what it meant, but it seemed to be that he was okay. And I had a sense of peace after that. And I remember hearing his voice in the dream, which is different than other dreams.

[00:24:56] Hearing his voice woke me up. So there were things like that. I just had a sense, I just had a feeling Other than that, 

[00:25:05] Maya: Yeah, I figured there was something in there though, because that's what it was for me. Like my brother was coming through to me. I felt him like I was coming to a pivotal point in my grief journey, and it felt like time. And sometimes it's just something in you. Sometimes it's a dream, sometimes it's something something that happens.

[00:25:19] It's so everybody's a little different. But thanks for, yeah, sharing that. But so many years later, 2004. You decide to, I'm sure you were writing the book before, but the book comes out the empty room, so can you share with us the process and what inspired you to do that?

[00:25:37] Elizabeth: The book started actually a long time and I'd have to say maybe like 92. I did my first graduate program, I think it was 92 at Johns Hopkins and it was in science writing. And we had to do a final project and it turned out that the woman who ran the program at that?

[00:25:55] time was a science writer who had lost a brother to cystic fibrosis and we had talked about it a little bit and she was one of the first people that I was like, oh, there's like somebody else, there's another one.

[00:26:04] 'cause I had lived with this always I always thought it was my strange story and it was definitely an unusual story in the details, but I. And I, thought who else would have this kind of thing to relate to? But it, but talking with her gave me the sense that maybe there's some similarities.

[00:26:17] So for my project, I interviewed three people who had lost siblings. I found them, which was not easy, and there were a lot of similarities. And I wrote it up. And then I had worked at the Washington Post Health section before that graduate program, and I showed it to the editor that ran the section and she edited it into a piece and they ran it as cover story.

[00:26:34] And it turned out she had a brother with autism. So it was all these 

[00:26:38] Maya: No coincidences, Elizabeth. No. coincidences. 

[00:26:41] Elizabeth: So she recognized something in it and she put it on the cover, and I think she was in her own way trying to validate that experience. And then many years later, how many years later? 97. I don't know, something like that.

[00:26:54] I did a graduate program in public health at Columbia. I probably have all these dates wrong, but it I studied with a woman who did qualitative research, which is basically using stories as data. Like you, you interview people and you basically code for similar themes that come out in them, and then you look at the themes and then, so it's like backwards of journalism where you just tell the story and infer, and then this one, you look at the themes and you're like, this is the architecture of what this experience is.

[00:27:22] So you write that, but you use pieces of the story to illustrate it, but. And so I started doing that and realized that a lot of sibling loss people had, the same story and that the age could vary. That there's some of these could vary by type of loss and by age and that kind of thing, but basically the architecture of the story was the same.

[00:27:42] And so I wrote that up and then I started thinking maybe I can write a book. Still took me some time. I. To write a proposal, learn how to write a proposal, like I really had to learn to be a good enough writer to do it too. I was still working in journalism at this point but I would say in the late nineties or something, I must have gotten the contract to do it.

[00:28:04] It took me a long time, lot longer than I thought it would because it was so painful and I interviewed 77 siblings and just started collecting stories and finding them, 

[00:28:13] Maya: Yeah. 77 siblings. 

[00:28:15] Wow. Yeah. And like back then, like now, me doing the show, Elizabeth it's hard to find siblings that wanna share their story or open up and talk. But we have social media, we have ways to reach all of you guys and, to, to connect with you. I can't even imagine trying to get 77 people then.

[00:28:34] That's, it's hard now. 

[00:28:36] Elizabeth: Yeah. I can't remember even how I did it. I tried through groups like compassionate Friends and didn't get that many takers. It was a lot of word of mouth. And I, but the thing is, people wanted to tell their stories because no one had ever asked, 

[00:28:48] Maya: there and there. There was nothing out there. We didn't talk about it, like it's just now starting to become a thing that we talk about. It's interesting. 

[00:28:55] Yeah.

[00:28:55] Elizabeth: Yeah, people really wanted to tell their stories. And I had people find me after I'd finished to say, can you interview me? And at that point I was like I can't right now. I, I'd finished the book and I was also burnt. Like I couldn't 

[00:29:05] Stories. But. It was a, it was often the first time anyone had ever told their story and simply because nobody asked siblings what their experience is or was. 

[00:29:17] Maya: Right.

[00:29:17] Elizabeth: And but again, what I found is all these stories share the same thing. Themes, I. 

[00:29:23] Maya: Can you share with us? That's the part I'm really interested in. As you're sharing this, I can you share with us some of the major themes, because I think that will really help all of you who are listening. Feel a little heard in this episode too, right? What are some major things? Because I think we feel so alone even today, Elizabeth.

[00:29:40] Like it's better, there's support systems and groups and things like that, but it's a very isolating experience 

[00:29:45] like, we've been talking about because for so many reasons, right? We're there for our parents. We don't feel like our losses as significant as theirs. There's I can go on and on, but what are some common themes that you found?

[00:29:56] Regardless of age, regardless of, the, how they lost their sibling, fill in the blank. What are some common ones that you found?

[00:30:02] Elizabeth: There's like the big art architecture and then other scenes. So the big architecture was disenfranchised grief, which is a theory created by Ken Doka. He's a psychologist. I may be getting that wrong, but I think he's the right one. It's been a long time since I reported that book, but, Disenfranchised grief basically speaks to the hierarchy of grief and how society sees some people as the primary mortars and everyone else as lesser.

[00:30:24] Your loss is lesser. And so siblings, obviously, if you've lost a sibling, this for the most part are considered basically invisible. It's not really your loss. You can't claim it. It's shame on you if you even try and have the equivalent of what your parent feels and that kind of thing. And because you get that, like, how's your mother?

[00:30:41] A friend of mine has a Workshop he does called How's Your Mother? Because that's often when people, the first thing people say to Aha Sibling, 

[00:30:47] right? 

[00:30:48] Maya: Know him very well 

[00:30:49] actually, 

[00:30:50] Elizabeth: Jordan, Fervor, 

[00:30:51] Maya: On this season, so you guys will hear from him. Yes.

[00:30:53] Elizabeth: hi Jordan. So yeah, so that's an experience. And what happens is because your loss is so unseen, you don't even recognize that it happened to you and you don't.

[00:31:02] Process the grief. And that leads to something called ambiguous loss. And that was a theory created by someone named Pauline Buss. Basically she created the theory to describe experiences like losing someone in Vietnam or losing someone Alzheimer's. So like a loss, I should go back, like a p o w.

[00:31:19] Like something happened to them and they disappear but you don't know what happened to them and they don't come back. So there are losses that are not classified as literal deaths. So they're not recognized. By all the rituals of mourning and therefore people get stuck in grief. They're like confused and so they're like trapped in this unmourned unprocessed emotions.

[00:31:39] And so I see that in tons. I've almost never not seen it in a sibling that they didn't have this disenfranchisement of their loss ms result, this inability to mourn because they're not allowed and they're like, feel ashamed even to allow themselves or to claim that. So there's this process that I talk about, like claiming the loss.

[00:31:57] Like you, as part of the process of living, part of the civil loss, you need to claim the loss. This happened to me too. This matters to me too. It's as important to me and my life as it is to those other people. It's a different loss. It's not, bigger, more important or thing, it's my loss and it matters to me.

[00:32:13] Beyond that, I would say that losing a sibling is an identity crisis. Because of how interlinked our lives are and how we play different roles in the family and with one another. There's something to continuing bonds. We have a sense of continued relationship and, psychology, psychiatry, the history of grief and loss taught us for a long time that to lose someone means to get over them.

[00:32:33] You have to get over them to be healthy and While a lot of psychology and the field has moved on from that to this idea of continuing bonds, you do have a continuing sense of relationship, even though they're not with us. It doesn't make sense that you would not have a continued sense of connection to someone who plays such a pivotal part in your life, right?

[00:32:50] So that's something to resolve, but there's still a lot of pervasive belief out there that if you have this sense of deep connection to somebody, there's something wrong with you. So it's Getting past the idea that this is something to get over and to this idea of continuing bonds, that is a process that you see people in, in one zone or another, basically when you talk to siblings.

[00:33:10] I'm trying to think what else. 

[00:33:14] Maya: I just wanna say I feel very seen right now. I'm very heard because this is so true. I'm like, yes, check. Yes, check. And these are all things a part of my story, and I'm sure part of most of your stories who are listening, because for me it really is. The last thing you said too. Really hit home with me, Elizabeth, because I can't tell you how many people.

[00:33:33] I let go or distance myself from that. Were like, you should get over this, or you should be over this. Why are you? And people still are very judgmental of me and I don't care. The fact that I'm almost seven years into this, which for me, I think that's so young in the journey still, 

[00:33:48] but. 

[00:33:49] I think it is.

[00:33:51] I'm gonna, it's gonna be seven years this November, 2023. And I think it's still really young in my journey. And so when people say stuff like that to me, they're like, oh, why are you still talking about your brother? Like he's dead. Move on. Those things, I had to work a lot in therapy and I'm sure a lot of you guys can connect with this too, but Elizabeth, I.

[00:34:10] That used to be so triggering for me because I got stuck. Stuck in such a place of anger because of the homicide loss. And we all, we all go through anger, right? But for me, I think people all experience things in different timelines and stuff, right? But for me it was anger. That's really my outlet and loss, and I've really learned a lot about myself with grief 

[00:34:27] and this journey. and so if anybody said anything like that to me, I was like, You can go to hell and say, forget you. And I just cut them off because, and I realize now that actually, might've not handled it very well back then. Now I'm at a totally different place, but I wasn't necessarily doing the wrong thing because those people are not coming from a place of empathy.

[00:34:49] They're not coming from a place of understanding. And I also now myself, have coming, have realized I can come from a place of empathy and understanding for them, because I now feel like. If they don't understand and they can't even fathom why I'm still sitting here talking about sibling loss and my brother and the impact that it's had on me and all these other siblings that listen to the show.

[00:35:09] Thank you. I feel happy for them. 

[00:35:11] Now I 

[00:35:12] feel totally different 'cause they've never had to experience this type of loss where you're not seeing, you're not heard and you're not even acknowledged.

[00:35:19] Elizabeth: I dunno. Yeah. Yeah. And as you're talking, I'm thinking, when I talked about age being a little bit different, You were an adult and had a little bit of the wherewithal to be like, whoa, what you're saying is not Right,

[00:35:33] and I'm gonna step away from it. Some of the people who do the worst in this scenario are the kids because they don't have that wherewithal.

[00:35:39] They're what they're coming at them is truth. So they have to usually get to adulthood. I hear from people who are in their seventies who are like just dawning on them that this loss happened to them and that they're allowed to claim it. And I just think it's harder to see that truth when you're younger and 

[00:35:55] Maya: I agree. I see that. I see that you're bringing up an amazing point, Elizabeth, and I was actually gonna ask you about this. So about going back to the fact that you were so young. You're 14, my sister was 20. When I have two sisters, my other sisters are a year younger than me. And My sister, who I'm close with, she's 10 years younger than me, she couldn't even have a drink of alcohol legally.

[00:36:16] When this happened to me, 20 is still a baby and watching me be 30 and her be 20, just her grief experience is totally different than mine because my brother was 27 when he was killed, and so she, I see her processing it now 

[00:36:33] at his age. It hit her in a totally different way, which is a whole other conversation, right?

[00:36:37] Because I'm never gonna experience that. I'm never gonna be like, oh my God, I'm the same age my brother was when he was killed. No, I'm not gonna experience that. But she is, and it's been really fascinating and I feel like really positive that I can be there for her as she's opening to her grief journey, because we all have our own timeline, but.

[00:36:55] I see more of her, like her kind of path and how she processed more like a teenager or a child 

[00:37:04] losing. Because it was just, I don't even think she fully processed it or understood for a long time that it even happened. 

[00:37:12] It's intense. 

[00:37:13] Elizabeth: Yeah. And people are at different developmental stages and yeah, I, sorry, I lost my train of thought. What I was gonna say there. 

[00:37:20] Maya: That's okay. That's okay. Yeah. She's the baby of the family too, so that's something I noticed as well and it's, that's interesting as well. It changes the dynamic, like you mentioned earlier in the family and. I really, as you were talking about this too I think it's interesting how everybody kept everything from you, like you didn't really know what was happening.

[00:37:38] And we did that to my sister, even though she was 20 years old. I was the one taking care of everything. I was the one, I lived here in Atlanta with my brother. No one else lived here. So I called the shots, I made the decisions. I knew every single thing that was happening, and that's a totally different perspective than someone who's showing up is very young.

[00:37:59] Fresh in college. You know what I mean? Like it's a different experience and different dynamics. So I can understand why she's had a lot of questions since then and 

[00:38:09] Elizabeth: Yeah. 

[00:38:09] Maya: happy to oblige and talk about them for sure.

[00:38:12] Elizabeth: It is also interesting you have the experience of having surviving siblings, which I don't have, and I, I could see the. How that helps in some cases and doesn't in others in situations. I've seen some are able to talk about it. I've talked to people who have surviving siblings and they've never talked about the loss together.

[00:38:27] Maya: yes. So my youngest sister, she's now going through her journey and like we'll watch videos of my brother being a musician. And so I love that Ted and him have that comment. I think that's really cute. But. She's going through a lot of that stuff. So we talk about him all the 

[00:38:40] time. All the 

[00:38:41] time. My other sister, her and I don't have a relationship because of what happened.

[00:38:46] She 

[00:38:46] wants to pretend like it did not even happen, 

[00:38:49] and she actually speaks poorly of him, 

[00:38:51] which I can't tolerate.

[00:38:52] Elizabeth: yeah. Could be a defense. I don't know the story of 

[00:38:56] Maya: You just stole the thoughts outta my head, Elizabeth. It is a defense. She's not ready to grieve. She's, and that's okay. That's her journey. But I can't invite that 

[00:39:03] toxic. Energy into my life. 

[00:39:05] Yeah. 

[00:39:08] It's a different experience having, and then watching everybody grieve a little bit differently.

[00:39:12] That was a part of my journey too, Elizabeth. I had to get to a place where I was okay with the fact that my youngest sister, my sister's a year younger than me, have a totally different journey. And I'm here like speaking really publicly about this, right? And one of them is supportive, but doesn't wanna be a part of it.

[00:39:30] The other one absolutely hates it. You have to come to a place where you're okay with it. You accept how they're grieving because that's their journey.

[00:39:38] Elizabeth: Yeah, my my parents, my father eventually read my book. My mother has never read it. 

[00:39:46] Maya: I was gonna ask you that too. 

[00:39:47] Elizabeth: Yeah. 

[00:39:47] Maya: What did they think about you writing the book? Yeah.

[00:39:49] Elizabeth: That was not a good time. I think it was very alarming to them. I think they were worried about what I was gonna write. I think they were worried I was gonna write something incriminating about them. I think it honestly had not dawned on them the experience that I had.

[00:40:05] Like my, my, my father, when he first heard the newspaper article that I did, that got published in the Washington Post, read that and he called me up and he said, I never knew it affected you so much. And I was like, wow. Yeah. I mean it was like, good for you to say that, but oh my God, how could You not have known that growing up in a hospital and watching my brother die in front of me was

[00:40:26] Maya: You have mixed 

[00:40:26] emotions 

[00:40:27] about that comment. Yeah, 

[00:40:28] Elizabeth: So I just think that they were so consumed with, the trauma and the drama of what was happening, that they were unable to see me and my experience. And it's, painful probably for them to think about it now and they maybe don't wanna see it all. 

[00:40:42] Maya: Makes sense. 

[00:40:43] Elizabeth: yeah, and I 

[00:40:44] Maya: That makes sense. Yeah. 

[00:40:46] And so you said your mom did not read the book, but your dad did read the book. 

[00:40:50] Elizabeth: Yeah, he did. 

[00:40:51] Maya: And how did he feel after reading it? Did you guys discuss it or is it 

[00:40:54] just not been something you've discussed at length?

[00:40:57] Elizabeth: I don't remember the entire conversation. I think we, my dad and I talk by text a lot, so I think he texted me and said he, he was on a trip and I think he read it in a hotel room and I think he, cried his way through. It basically is what he said. 

[00:41:07] It was, Yeah.

[00:41:08] it was moving and I appreciated that he had done it 

[00:41:12] Maya: Yeah.

[00:41:13] Elizabeth: from my mom.

[00:41:14] I think it was just too painful but, my, my dad. Had another identity during the time, and this was all going on that he could bury himself and he was a scientist doing this work. My mom was a mother at that point. She had me and she had my brother. And so this was her whole identity tied up in, in what happened to him and also what happened to me.

[00:41:31] So if I said anything negative, which I think she's too painful. I heard or read what she had not seen. 

[00:41:38] Maya: Yeah. 

[00:41:38] Yeah I can understand that. Yeah. 

[00:41:42] And I and kudos to your father for reading it, because I don't take it personally if my family does not listen to the show, read anything that I put out or anything like that, because I. Again, that took me time to get to that place where I could be cool with that, I guess is the best way for me to say it.

[00:41:58] I really don't know. So you put the book out, but your brother Ted is also like a part of a really well-known movie, like they based this on him. Can we talk about that for a minute? We have to talk about that. 

[00:42:12] Elizabeth: We can talk about that. 

[00:42:13] Maya: Yeah. 

[00:42:14] Elizabeth: when I was, I think I was 10, they started advertising this Made for TV movie. This was a big deal back in, I guess this was the seventies called The Boy in the Plastic Bubble. And it was based on my brother and another boy in Texas who was in the press a lot. They was referred to as Baby David.

[00:42:32] They, he had a different disorder in my brothers. He'd been born with skid, I think it's severe, combined immune efficiency disease. But, treatment was the same, put him in a bubble. So they both lived out their lives like that. And I think he might've died before my brother, but not long before.

[00:42:47] So they, and there was public fascination. With the situation. Obviously that family was quite involved with the press and maybe they participated in the movie. I don't know. My family tried to shield my brother from the press 'cause he didn't like the immediate attention, but we can tell from the movie that somebody talked.

[00:43:04] So what they did was combine the two stories. For that movie. I think that meant they didn't have to get permission from anybody. It's all fictionalized, but there was things that were so taken from my brother's life, there's No, way somebody didn't talk. And yeah, that Libby came out in 1976.

[00:43:16] My whole family like boycotted except for me. I watched it in secret in my room and I remember being really confused by it. 'cause I was 10 and I didn't understand why he walked out of the room in the I'm sorry. Spoiler for you. Haven watched the movie. He 

[00:43:31] He walks out of the room in the end and I'm like he's gonna die.

[00:43:34] Like that was what I thought. And then I realized honestly, only as an adult, like they, what they were saying was that it was better to have a little bit of time outside in the real world than this sort of non-life confined in this bubble room. And I was like, oh, they're idiots. They don't get him at all.

[00:43:54] They don't understand and then I was angry. 'cause I'm like, who are they to judge his life? They didn't know him. They, talked to some doctor or nurse who may have worked on the floor to get a few details from his life. And then it was somebody who had no insight whatsoever as to him or how he lived, who put together this idea that he had a non-life in that room.

[00:44:12] And the opposite was true. 

[00:44:14] Maya: You knew this is your brother. This is your, your siblings, I always say this, your siblings are your first best friend, your first enemy, your first 

[00:44:21] playmate. All of 

[00:44:22] that, 

[00:44:22] right? So you knew, and you're like, he has, he's this rich, amazing person and I know this and that.

[00:44:28] He's not defined by this. 

[00:44:29] So I could see why you would feel that way. 

[00:44:32] I, when we were talking and you told me that, I was like, oh my gosh, this all like clicks. I'm like, yeah, okay. But it was, I haven't seen that movie in a really long time, but it's, yeah, that's interesting. And so I, I wanted to just touch on that because I think it's interesting how they did that.

[00:44:47] And nowadays, that would never fly. That would be like a court case in two seconds and it would be televised. They would never get away with something like that. But but I can see how they slipped under the radar doing that and combining the two stories. Did. Now, was your brother ever in contact with this other young man or No? 

[00:45:02] Elizabeth: No?

[00:45:03] No, I think my family was a little bit appalled at the time and how involved with the press they were. And Yeah.

[00:45:10] no, I don't think it occurred to anyone to be in touch with them. 

[00:45:13] Maya: That's 

[00:45:14] wild. 

[00:45:14] Elizabeth: had a very different way of being with the situation. 

[00:45:17] Maya: Yeah. So Elizabeth, thank you for sharing all of this today. You have been incredible. Before we talk about where we can find your book, where we can find you and connect with you. 

[00:45:28] I'm still thinking about 77 siblings 'cause I'm like, wow. I haven't even interviewed that many people yet.

[00:45:33] But that's wild. Yeah. But is there anything else you can share with us? You've been on this journey for quite some time. Is there anything you can share with us we haven't talked about today? All of the siblings that listen to the show. Sometimes we have people who are day into their journey.

[00:45:47] Sometimes we have people who are 50, 60 years into their journey. To your point earlier, what have you learned along the way or what are some pieces of advice that you wish you could have given yourself maybe along this journey? Is there anything that we haven't touched on today that you'd like to share?

[00:46:00] Elizabeth: Wow. 

[00:46:01] Maya: A big question. I know.

[00:46:02] Elizabeth: That's like what's your philosophy of life 

[00:46:04] at this point? cause I've lived with this for so long. It cha loss changes at different times in your life. There are losses that I didn't anticipate and just when you think you've figured it out, something new comes on or is triggery.

[00:46:15] So I've learned that's gonna happen. I didn't have kids when I wrote the empty room, and now I do. And there have been other triggers for the feeling of loss that have come up since then. My kids from the same age as that we were Yeah.

[00:46:28] the first time I saw my oldest son, cut himself in bleed and I like, had a moment of panic or bruise on my kid, had a different reaction.

[00:46:38] They're just it'll come and get you in different ways. I grieve for the fact that they'll never know their uncle and that he'll never know them and have bad presence in their lives. So they're like new griefs that come I feel like if you keep trying to make meaning of the loss, that's something that another big theme actually that I didn't mention that there's, it doesn't make the pain go away, but there's like a richness that you gain from it and a wisdom that I appreciate.

[00:47:03] I feel like I'm better is like not the right word, a richer deeper person. Because I've experienced that this loss and because I've made choices to make meaning out of it and to try and help others with it. And that keeps me going in a healthy spaces, as, as opposed to spinning in it.

[00:47:21] I think closure's a miss. I get really mad when that gets bandied about. I think knowing what happened to someone, Like in, in your situation like that can be helpful to know the details of what something happened, but that does not mean that it takes the pain away. 

[00:47:35] Maya: Elizabeth. My saying that I say all the time is closure doesn't exist, but answers do. 

[00:47:39] Elizabeth: Yeah. 

[00:47:40] I get really mad when I see closure out in 

[00:47:42] Maya: Me too. It's so triggering for me. I'm like, no. No, you can move forward. You don't move on. There's no such thing as closure. 

[00:47:49] Only answers. That's 

[00:47:50] what I say. Yeah. 

[00:47:51] Elizabeth: And also it's closure means. Are you gonna close the book or the, slam the door on that relationship? No, that's not what you want. You want some root forward to integrating this experience in your life so that you can live it again? 

[00:48:05] Maya: Think of closure, I think of leaving a relationship or leaving. Okay, I am leaving that chapter of my life, like selling a house or like moving on from a job that I know I'm never gonna go back to, or something like 

[00:48:14] that, right? Not someone who is supposed to be a part of my life.

[00:48:19] Elizabeth: I. 

[00:48:20] Maya: Until we both died, and like when we were old, not when he was 27, not when he was 17. So and that's, I think I just learned a lesson much younger and you learned a very young that the, and even after, 'cause even if, my brother had lived a really long time that. He would still be with me, depending on who passed away first.

[00:48:43] This is a bond that transcends the earth, for sure. 

[00:48:46] Elizabeth: Yeah I feel like all of my strengths and probably all of my weaknesses came from this experience,

[00:48:53] Maya: I can imagine. Yeah.

[00:48:55] Elizabeth: and I just try and appreciate the strengths and, make space for the weaknesses or that's the right way to say it. Forgive myself for the weaknesses and understand them. And it's a lifelong journey.

[00:49:09] It just doesn't stop. You're not done. You're never done. But that's okay. That's just part of it. 

[00:49:14] Maya: Yeah. That's beautiful, Elizabeth. Thank you for sharing that. I knew you had more in you. I was like, you've got a couple more things to share. I'm pretty sure. So obviously read the book. I enjoyed it. I reached out to you because I loved reading it and I wanna go back and reread it now because I've done so many interviews.

[00:49:29] I'm like, okay, I wanna go back and refresh. So tell us where we can connect with you Elizabeth.

[00:49:33] Elizabeth: I'm on Facebook, just search me. There are a lot of sibling survivors who are on my page. Some of them I know personally and some of them are just people who found me. I have a blog that I've been posting intermittently on lately, but I am gonna develop more called finding ted devita.com at what started during the pandemic.

[00:49:54] When I was exploring the fact that you were all living a version of his life. So I started thinking about him and talking to people who had known him to find out more about how he did what he did, and people are welcome to email me. It's my two last names, Devita Rayburn D E V i T A R A E B U R n@gmail.com.

[00:50:11] I have an open door policy for siblings, so I always answer and if I'm, if I don't, it's because my cheer got Bogged down and lots of emails, so feel free to email me again if I don't respond right away. Yeah, 

[00:50:23] Maya: You definitely respond 'cause you responded to me and we ended up chatting on the phone, which was beautiful. Yes. Okay. So just to tell us your website again for Ted 

[00:50:31] Ted DaVita. 

[00:50:32] Elizabeth: it's Finding Ted devita.com. 

[00:50:34] Maya: DaVita. Okay, perfect. And of course your email is DaVita Rayburn at gmail, is that correct?

[00:50:40] Elizabeth: Yeah. And actually if people could put in the subject line sibling loss 

[00:50:43] Maya: I was gonna say, what 

[00:50:44] can I put in like sibling? Yeah. 

[00:50:46] Yep. Beautiful. And we'll put all that in the show notes too, Elizabeth, so they can connect with you. And I'm so excited that you came on the show. This has been amazing. Lots of great wisdom. And we'll continue on our grief journey, right?

[00:50:58] Missing our brothers. 

[00:50:59] Elizabeth: that's right. 

[00:51:00] Maya: And honoring them. Thank you so much for being here. 

[00:51:02] Elizabeth: Thank you for having me. It was great. 

[00:51:04] Maya: Thanks, and thank you guys so much for listening to the Surviving Siblings Podcast.

[00:51:10] Thank you so much for listening to the Surviving Siblings Podcast. If you enjoyed this episode as much as I did creating it for you, then share it on your chosen social media platform. And don't forget to tag us at Surviving Siblings Podcast so that more surviving siblings can find us. Remember to rate, review and subscribe to the podcast.

[00:51:41] And don't forget to follow us on all social media platforms. We're on Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok at Surviving Siblings Podcast. All links can be found in the show notes, so be sure to check those out too. Thank you again for the support. Until the next episode, keep on surviving my surviving siblings.