Navigating Sibling Loss to Domestic Violence

0:00:06 - Maya

Welcome to the Surviving Siblings podcast. I'm your host, maya Roffler. As a surviving sibling myself, I knew that I wanted to share my story, my brother's story. I lost my brother to a homicide in November 2016. And after going through this experience, I knew that I wanted to share my story and his story. And now it's your turn to share your stories. Please note that this episode contains depictions and stories of siblings lost by homicide, suicide and or domestic violence. Some people may find these stories activating, triggering and or disturbing. Please see our show notes for additional resources and to understand the full content of the episode Today. I have another incredible brief sibling with me today. Her name is Stacy Stacy, welcome to the show. 

0:01:18 - Stacy

Thank you, I'm so happy to be here. 

0:01:21 - Maya

I'm so happy to have you. It's always bittersweet, right, Happy to have you here, but also not Right. But today you're going to share your story and your grief journey and share a little bit about your sister, Katie Jo. So, Stacy, if you could start us off and tell us a little bit about your relationship with Katie and how you guys kind of grew up, tell me a little bit about the dynamic and kind of clue us into that in the beginning. 

0:01:50 - Stacy

All right. Well, Katie was born when I was 10 and a half years old, in the fifth grade, so automatically she was just a baby doll, Like she was just a little doll to me. I loved giving her baths and kind of just being little mommy and we'd have all these fun summer parties because my mother was a stay-at-home mom and we'd love dressing Katie up as like the little clown and she'd run around in her little walker and it was like our preteen friends and then just little baby Katie. And you know, like all of my friends, even to this day, they just remember her as baby Katie Because you know, when I was, when I graduated from high school, she was eight years old and I went off to college, so my mother has been married multiple times. 

Katie's father is actually my stepfather. That raised me since I was like two years old. I think it's when my parents got married, so he's my dad. But you know, when I graduated from high school and went off to college, my parents were going through a divorce. At that time, Like, I remember my mother sending me a picture of a divorce ring she bought herself, and then it was the same day that OJ Simpson was like whatever vindicated in court, Like it was that same day, so it's like oh my gosh. I think a lot of us remember that day too right. 

It's like oh, wow, so sometime in October of 1995, I think it's when it was but I was already at college and so she had. After they got divorced, she got with this other man and they moved down to the San Antonio area. So Katie was, you know, nine years old-ish at that time. I'm off at college. Our dad still lived up. We're from the Dallas area, so our dad still lived up in the Dallas area of Texas and then mother moved down to San Antonio. 

So, being that far away and that far removed age-wise, I remember, like when I would go see my mother, when Katie would be like a young teenager or not even a young teenager, maybe like 11. I remember one time she got into my makeup and she was like using all of my stuff and my mom got so mad at her. I got so mad at her and I was like stay out of my stuff, you little brat. You know like whatever, just like my kids. I'm 20 years old, you know whatever she's like. She's like 10 years old or 11 years old, and she was like I just don't, I just don't know you Like I was just trying to like she's like looking through my stuff, trying to get to know me, because she felt like she didn't know me because I was a grown adult and moved away. 

And so I think that moment in time was just such a wake-up moment for me, because it was just this little baby that I adored and then suddenly I was not in her life regularly anymore, and so I did make an attempt to visit her and call her and, you know, make sure I sent cards and letters and stuff like that, because I was still, I had come back from college and I was still living up in the Dallas area. 

So I did try to do that quite a bit more. And then when she was 14, 15, I had my son when I was 20 and I had my daughter when I was 25, and it was right after I had my daughter, so she would have been 15. My mother kept calling me and like telling me how bad she was doing in school and she was just failing all the classes, blah, blah, blah. And I remember very distinctly I was at my son's soccer game and he was like five years old and I was like you know what? How about you quit calling me and complaining about something I can't do anything about. Just send her up here, I'll take care of it, you send her up here. She can live with me, and she did. 

0:05:53 - Maya

And she just had the reaction of like okay or like wow, because that's wow Completely really, which you know. 

0:06:00 - Stacy

Later on it was kind of when Katie was doing better with me, she was like, oh, you just think you're, you know, the best mom ever. I'm like, hey, did you want me to do this? And did you want her to fail? Like, what do you want? I don't know what you want me to do. Right, she never gave us any of the childhood support that my dad was sending. He didn't know that I was just. It was a really difficult dynamic but you know, I kind of got her back on the straight and narrow. She had joined the church youth group, which back then I was into that and I'm not now, but that was really, really helpful for that station of life. 

0:06:37 - Maya

Yeah. 

0:06:37 - Stacy

And she was. She was just doing really well and she graduated from high school and toward the end she got in a little bit of trouble and she actually went to stay with my other sister for not very long, but after she graduated high school she ended up moving back down to San Antonio. I'm not sure if she lived with my mother or I'm not 100% sure what was going on for a couple of years there, but I think she was living with my mother again. So anyway, you know, we were, we were very, very close when she was a teenager and of course she was my little baby doll before I moved out when she was eight and then as an adult, as a young adult I would say 28, maybe her being 28. 

She was just having a lot of issues. She was a, she was like I was. She's a chameleon. If she liked somebody and they were into something, she was into it, and not that it was like anything like drugs, but like if they liked country music, well she was a roper, you know that kind of thing, but I think a lot of people can relate to that Stacey, though, like a lot of people are like that, or a lot of people have siblings that are like that as well, and sometimes it was extreme for them, right where it would be like drugs or alcohol or whatever. 

0:08:04 - Maya

It was right For her it was country music or working out, or you know. I know we're going to get into some of that stuff, but you know it's, it's a certain personality type that I think a lot of people can relate to, and sometimes you're just like you got to follow along a little bit because you're like what are you into right now? 

0:08:21 - Stacy

You know, and I do find that happens in younger siblings too- yeah, her being the youngest, like our other sister is eight years older than her and I'm 10 and a half years older than her, yeah, so we'll you know. All of a sudden we're all gone and there's nobody left to blame for who did this? That was obviously you, like you're the only one here, so I know that she had. She had a lot of problems really like truly, I truly loving herself and I don't know why. She's very lovable, but I really feel like she spent so much time like trying to figure out who she was and she tried a lot of things. Like a lot of people don't actually go out and like grab onto things and try different things like am I this, am I this? I mean this. They just kind of like look around for other people to like validate them. She was a person that would go out and like try it and say is this me? Yes or no? No by next or yes, I'm glomming onto this and we'll see where this goes. 

0:09:26 - Maya

Are you passionate about making a difference in your community? Join us at the Peace Initiative, where we're dedicated to putting an end to abuse through community efforts. At the Peace Initiative, our mission is clear we're here to educate our community about the extent and often deadly consequences of domestic violence. We believe in responding effectively through collaborative partnerships because together we can create lasting change. Through our programs and initiatives, we empower individuals to recognize the signs of abuse, support survivors and work towards a free future from violence. We can't do it alone, though. Your support matters. Whether you volunteer your time, donate resources or simply spread the word. Your help makes a real difference in the lives of those affected by domestic violence. Visit our website at wwwthepieceinitiativeorg to learn more about how you can get involved. Together, let's put an end to abuse and domestic violence through our community efforts. Join us at the Peace Initiative, where every action counts 30? 

0:10:41 - Stacy

30. So this would have been 2017. She had jobs at two different gyms and I think she ended up working at the Gold Gym, the Venice Gold Gym. I know she was teaching boxing and she met Mike Tyson. It was Mike Tyson's gym or whatever. Just all this kind of cool stuff, just having a blast like you wanted her to have. Yeah, she cut off all her hair and then at some point she had extensions in her hair. She's like I don't think I've ever seen her more than anybody I've ever known. I could see that she was doing well, but she was still cycling through that. What makes me me and who am I? Part of life. We talk pretty regularly on Instagram, facebook and then talking on the phone. We email, whatever. Then, when COVID happened, I think between COVID and the president, things got a little crazy for her, especially being a gun person with a democratic president Right Then she started sending me messages about just the president taking away the guns. 

0:12:09 - Maya

She kind of shifted a little bit. You saw her kind of going in this direction. 

0:12:13 - Stacy

Yeah, she did. It made me think that somebody that she was around was being this way. 

0:12:20 - Maya

Because you've already told us yes, he was quite a million. 

0:12:27 - Stacy

I mean I even stopped some Facebook pages of people that she was friends with. I really couldn't find anyone that seemed like they would be influencing her. Then I thought, okay, maybe it's just like cabin fever. She's frustrated, she can't work. Then there was riots and stuff. Which I'm from a little town near Dallas and that's where we were living. Which there was a mass shooting there a year ago. 

Before that, it felt like a relatively safe place. She would send me things like you don't know, you live in your safe little neighborhood and I'm out here. This is LA. People are just pulling guns on people on the side of the road. It's terrifying. There's nothing I can do. It's like she was scared and angry all at the same time. I really didn't know what was. I was asking what are you reading? Where are you getting your information from? She was like the internet and blah, blah. I don't know how to help you because she was just very combative with me about this, because I'm not a gun person. We have a shotgun in our mule because we might have a bear in the woods that we live on 40 acres of woods. 

0:13:45 - Maya

You guys live in the country, so yeah, so we have a gun for that reason. 

0:13:51 - Stacy

Mostly it's used to shoot bobbleheads and pumpkins, because we're not hunters. I've never been a gun person, I will say. In fact, the first gun I ever actually saw with my own eyeballs, in person, not in a case at a store, was when I was cleaning out her apartment and it was her gun collection. Wow, and I had to get my stepdad to come handle that, because I was. It terrified me. It terrified me, but all her guns were there, so she was not armed. 

0:14:24 - Maya

So anyway, I guess something's going on with her Stacey. Something's going on at this time and she's operating when people we know this right, when people are sending messages like that or are acting in that manner, they're operating out of fear. So it's very interesting that she's operating out of fear, which, to be fair, a lot of people at that time were operating out of fear, and rightfully so. But this is your sister and you knew Katie Jo was not beating Katie Jo, this was not the girl that was meant to go to California like total hottie-tottie sweetheart. 

So something had shifted. So when did you ever start to uncover what was going on? What happened next in this Because this is quite interesting that she's going to you and obviously you're her trusted confidant. You've been this mama bear figure to her. You've done so many things. 

0:15:23 - Stacy

Her daughter was told her that I was her mother. Your mother is not your mother. Your sister is your mother. I can hear you talking about your sister and that is your mother. And she looked at me that way and, of course, I'm almost 11 years older than her and I lived a lot of life and I helped raise her. So, yeah, so I don't really know. She just kind of got mad at me and then she stopped messaging me on Instagram, which is where we're having this whole conversation about LA and the president and the guns and all this. I'm like what is happening? And that must have been like I don't know. 

I have a whole timeline that I wrote out after she died to like see, what did I miss is somewhere. I don't know where it is, but I want to say maybe that must have been like July or August of 2020. Yeah, and her birthday's October, and so she had quit messaging me at all. I did send her a couple of emails like, hey, just checking in and making sure everything's okay. She never replied. I'm like okay, I called her on her birthday and it said that the call couldn't go through. It was a bad phone number. 

So I went on Instagram to see if I could send her a message there and she had blocked me and I went on Facebook and she had blocked me and I went on to she had blocked me and then I kind of kept. I would email her and be like are you okay? What's going on? Where are you? She's like oh, now you care about me. I'm like what? So I don't really. 

Something happened between January and December. Something happened in that year that she totally flipped who she was. Yeah, it wasn't right, but she still had me blocked from her phone and so you know she's an adult. So all I could really do was be like well, she knows I'm here for her. She's never hesitated to ask for help and she obviously doesn't want me around right now, and I just have to accept that. I have my own family, my own children, my own job. You know I have. I have a life to take care of too, and if she doesn't want me in hers for this time, then that's fine. She'll come back, and I knew she would, but she didn't. So she, she was killed by her boyfriend. 

0:18:17 - Maya

We're in 2021 now, yep. 

0:18:20 - Stacy

Yep 2021, on her 34th birthday. And we don't, of course, we know all of this now, afterward, because we had an amazing detective squad down in New Braunfels, texas, and Kumal County, texas the district of China was incredible. So we found out all of this, you know, later. And then talking to people who are mutual friends with them, who were like shocked and just completely blown away and obviously not questioning whose side they were on at all in any of this, but I didn't know these people. I didn't know these people and it did turn out that her, her boyfriend, I actually had met him once. They had been off and on for about 10 years. 

0:19:22 - Maya

That was my next question for you, because I don't know if we've ever chatted about that and definitely want all of you guys to take care about this. So she had known him for quite some time. 

0:19:30 - Stacy

Long time. Yep, oh, actually I took my son down to Austin for some music festival that he wanted to go to, for it was actually like Mother's Day weekend, I think, whenever year it was and she was living down there at that time and she was like, hey, can we come see you guys at the hotel? I'm like Hell, yeah. So we saw her and she brought this guy with and she was like, oh, this is my friend, whatever. We were like Okay, and I didn't really remember that, but my son did, and he was like, is that the guy that we met when we went to see Mac DeMarco and Austin? And I was like, oh, my God, it is, it's the same guy. So, and this was, I don't know my child was like 1817 or 18 and he's 26 now, yeah, 26. So this is. They had been on and off for 10 years, going back and forth. 

And then once I was unblocked from her Facebook when my mother turned it into a memorial page or whatever, and I could see posts of hers with him and going out places with him and friends and going to bars and dancing and, you know, hunting, just having a good time. He was like her into guns and to hunting, had a lot of training to stuff with the NRA I think as well, and they, you know, that's that's just how they were. So they were both gym rats and they both love hunting and and just guns in general. So but what I, what I did learn afterward was that he actually came to California and helped her pack and move back to Texas. Wow, that's a big piece of information, wow. And I also found out that sometime right before COVID maybe, he met her in Las Vegas with a couple of friends and they spent a weekend in Las Vegas hanging out. So he seemed very supportive of her to move and well, at least from what she was posting like thank you for supporting me, man, whatever. And then he helped her move back and I've seen things on her socials now that I'm just like like gross Red flags. 

So when we had her a memorial, obviously she was going to get cremated, but because they had to do a medical examiner, had to do the autopsy, her body was not there in time, so we just had like an empty jar, like an empty urn or whatever. But her body actually got there like that afternoon. So they called me because I had told them I want to see her before you put her in the oven. Um, and they would only let me see her arm, because she was so disfigured and the arm that I could see was the one that had a tattoo with his name on it, and I was like, wow, I didn't see even that she had this whole year, year plus of her life, that you just had no idea. 

0:22:42 - Maya

Like all, like I feel like it's almost like a novel that we're telling here, stacey, because it's like there's just every piece is starting to come together. But you're like, where do I fit it in the puzzle? And she's got this huge tattoo of his name. And you're like I barely even had heard of this guy. 

0:23:00 - Stacy

But this is crazy, I mean, and I told him in my victim impact statement and the allocation, uh, when he was sentenced, I told him I didn't even know your name and I know that there's a reason that I didn't know your name. She was not proud to be with you. She was not proud to be your girlfriend because she was, I would know, out of everybody in this whole room, I would know, and it's true, and she there was something. Maybe she didn't like um show that to the people that she was around on the daily basis, but there was something in her mind and in her heart that she knew that something wasn't right, that wasn't making a good choice because she did not tell me and that sounds so selfish of me but the history of our life together I would know, I would know, I knew what she did. I was often eloped with this guy and I took pictures of them and it was some rando like. 

0:24:01 - Maya

I would know right. That that's that was my point earlier, stacey, and why I wanted to talk about this because that when we, like I said, you know, when we know something doesn't feel right, we tend to keep it from the people that we love and trust the most, which is interesting, right, and then evolves through time, cause then we we grow more mature and we learn to stop doing stuff like that. But initially that's our reaction, like I remember myself being, when I was with a very abusive guy for many years when I was very young, I hit it. I hit all of the details for my parents, for my family, for seven years and then even beyond that. So we do that because we know those are the people that for for better or worse, or if their relationships good or bad, whatever they love us the most and that if they found out any of those details. So you were spot on with this and this is a very important story to tell. 

And I want to go back, stacey, because I want you to talk about the whole court experience being. You know, victims advocate all of that stuff, cause this is something I get questions about all the time. I did not have that experience because of my story and everything that transpired, and I think it's really important that people like yourself share these these parts of the story. But I want to go back to the hardest part of this story, when you lost Katie Joe and can you tell us obviously he took her life, but can you tell us what happened, to the best of your knowledge, and how you got notified. And then we're going to move through kind of the court process and stuff, because you had a positive experience with the DA and with the court system, which is not always the case, right? 

0:25:39 - Stacy

So positive, but it was pretty good, yeah, but I share all those details. 

0:25:43 - Maya

Best, as best as you could maybe wish for right after hearing some other stories. So I guess a little bit about what happened when you lost her, because it was yeah To go in order would be getting notified first. 

0:25:56 - Stacy

Yeah, so it was on October 27th. My phone was ringing. 

0:26:03 - Maya

It was like four o'clock in the morning, which is that her birthday Stacy Her birthday is a 26th. So she was. You got notified the day after her birthday, but she was killed on her birthday she was like 10 30 at night on her birthday. 

0:26:15 - Stacy

So my phone was ringing and I thought I was dreaming and I remember now, looking back, like it was probably ringing several times and then finally somebody left a voicemail, you know, so it makes that other noise, and that noise woke me up. And then it was calling my. And then it was calling me like right away again, and it just said New Braunfels, which I know is a town in Texas. I'm like who do I know New Braunfels? Like nobody, I don't know anybody down there, like that's not where my mother lives, you know, she lives like in some other little place South of San Antonio, it's like 30 minutes away or whatever. 

So I picked it up and this guy, he said he was like my name is Detective Groff, I'm with the New Braunfels Police Department, and I was like okay. And he said do you know Kathleen Johnson? And I said I do, she's my sister. And he said does she go by Kathleen? And I said no, she goes by Katie. And he said okay, I think he was just trying to like make sure he had the right person or whatever. 

0:27:30 - Maya

Yeah, yeah, they asked those kind of fact finding questions, yeah, and he said so. 

0:27:36 - Stacy

he said I actually sent a deputy to your father's home a few hours ago. So at one o'clock in the morning my father, who is like over 70 years old, has a deputy in his local town knocking on his door to give him this death notification. And after talking to my dad later that morning he said yeah, I told him I couldn't handle it and they call you. The reason that they called my dad was because he was saved as dad in her phone. She didn't have my mother in her phone and she didn't have me listed as sister in her phone. I don't even know if I was in her phone, but obviously you don't list sister, sister, stacy, like I'm a nun or something. So they called dad because that's the one thing that they could recognize. This is probably a family member. But he gave them my number and so I was like okay. 

And he said I sent a deputy to your father's house and he directed me to you and I was like okay, what's going on? He said I'm sorry to tell you this, but I'm just gonna say the guy's name. He said Clifton has murdered Katie. And I said, and I quote and excuse my French who the fuck is Clifton? 

0:28:50 - Maya

Because you didn't even know at this time. Yeah, I mean like, who is this? 

0:28:53 - Stacy

Yeah, and even when he was introduced to me all those years ago, it was just Cliff, not Clifton. So I was like I don't even know who that is. And he was like oh my gosh, I am so sorry. I thought you would know who that is. We think it was her boyfriend and I'm like I have no idea who that is. Are you sure you're talking about Katie Jo? And he was like yeah, he said unfortunately, I am. I'm sorry to tell you in this way. I'm sorry that you don't know who that is, but I just wanted to make sure that someone in the immediate family knows. If you want me to call other family members, I will, or if you want to call them, that's fine too, but I have your number and we'll be in touch with you later today or tomorrow on some things. And I was. 

I think it's crazy how fast you go into shock. Like your brain is like playing ping pong with itself, like this is not real, this is real, this is not real, this is real. And you just suddenly I just had like this white out in my brain, like what is happening, and I got off the phone with a guy and I remember my husband had woken up because he heard me on the phone at 430 in the morning and he was like what is going on? And I couldn't talk. I just like literally fell on the floor and started sobbing. And I'll tell you this is really crazy. A week before that literally one week so I was working with a theater company and I was a stage manager for a play that was about to open and it was literally tech week, which is the worst week to not be able to be available in theater. But the week before that I actually called in absent one night and I lied and I told the guy that there was something going on with my sister. 

0:30:51 - Maya

I've chills. 

0:30:53 - Stacy

Oh my gosh, yeah. And he was like, okay, no worries, you know, take care of your business. And I spent a lot of time that night looking online and trying to call her and looking through emails and just it was literally exactly. It was the Tuesday a week prior, so it would be like the 19th or whatever. 

0:31:15 - Maya

Oh my God, you just you knew something was going on. I didn't go to rehearsal. 

0:31:19 - Stacy

I totally lied, but I spent that night doing that. But I don't think you lied. 

0:31:25 - Maya

I think that's a thing that it's hard to explain, but it's like you knew something was going on. Clearly it was, because if a week later this is all what transpired, right, clearly something was going on. We just know. Oh, it gives me chills. 

0:31:41 - Stacy

Gives me chills. Well, I mean in the thing. The next week, when I had to call him and say what happened, his immediate thought went back and he was like oh my gosh, is this related to last week? 

And I was like, yeah, I guess it is. So that was crazy, but anyway. So that morning I spent trying to call my mother and my other sister who, for various and lovely reasons, have me blocked on social media and apparently on their phones. But if you call somebody enough, even if they have your number blocked, if you call them enough, it finally lets you through to voicemail. I think I called my mother 65 times before I even got through. And I finally got through to my other sister who lived like half an hour away from me. She finally called me back and I told her and I said do you want to call Mom, do you want me to call her? And she's like no, you call her, okay. So I finally got in touch with my mother. I don't even remember what I said. I know I said Katie's dead and she's there in New Braunfels, and I called my boss and I packed a bag and I got in my car and somehow I drove five hours south. I don't remember the drive. 

0:33:17 - Maya

You know how you got there right. 

0:33:18 - Stacy

It's like don't even know. Nope, I'm going straight to my mother's house, who I think I had not spoken to for five plus years prior to this. My sister was also not speaking to her at the time of her death. A lot of just family drama, dynamics and people just trying to break cycles, I think. 

And I went down there and I after I sobbed on the floor in my home. I don't think I cried again until I got back home, which was almost two weeks later. Because I stayed, I helped with all of the funeral stuff, the police stuff, cleaning out her apartment. Then the funeral happened and all these people came and then I stayed a couple of extra days, but in a hotel, not with my mother, just kind of tying up loose ends and whatever. Then I came back home and then so two weeks full off work before I went back. It's very difficult, and maybe you had the same experience. It's very difficult to remember. I don't remember driving back home either, but even the first few days back at home I don't remember if I was sad or I don't remember what was happening because I think I was shocked for probably a good six months. Honestly, I think my brain stayed that way for a very long time. 

0:35:01 - Maya

I think a lot of you guys listening, and myself included, that was an experience for me too. It took years for me to be able to tell my story because I had to really force myself to go back and really recount what happened. What you're describing, stacy, is very much what I You're describing something that I think a lot of people can relate to too is this we cry, we have this initial shock and cry and emotion. 

Then it's like whoop it goes up, then you're in survival mode. Really, it's a fog, survival mode. But it's not even the first year fog. It's way more intense than that You've got to go through, especially when a lot of the eldest siblings go through this. But even if you are the responsible one in the family, you'll go through this. You have these things you need to get done. Okay, we know they're dead. Now we need to know are we getting a casket? Are we doing cremation? 

It becomes very transactional. I feel like your mind starts to just overwhelm yourself with that and go okay, you're going into transaction mode. Even though you're feeling so much, you just go into a numbness because you're like I got to get this all done, I got to do all of these things. If I don't do it, who's going to do it? All that stuff's rattling around in your brain. To speak to what you said earlier, I think that is something that it shows strength, sure, but I think it's more just a testament to who you are as a person and who you felt like you needed to be in the family unit. Sometimes it can prolong your grief because it did for me. I think that's what you're describing as well. 

0:36:49 - Stacy

I definitely connect with that, I think also being in the no contact position with my mother and being pressed back into that, I had an extra guard of emotions because I was like I'm not safe to grieve here. 

0:37:02 - Maya

I'm not safe to grieve, oh, for sure. 

0:37:04 - Stacy

Yeah. 

0:37:05 - Maya

There's a lot of people listening that connect to that too. 

0:37:08 - Stacy

That was just like extra. I was like right, you're home, the police, what are we doing? Where's her stuff? What are we getting? When can we get this? Who's doing this? Where's the truck? What's going? 

0:37:17 - Maya

on, you're going double protective mode yeah. 

0:37:21 - Stacy

Of course, since she had never been married, she had no will. She started old. My mother was automatically the executor of everything for her. There were things I couldn't get done. I couldn't take care of certain things because I didn't have the rights to request that. 

0:37:41 - Maya

Which is so frustrating when you're the one trying to get it done. Yeah, it's very frustrating. 

0:37:45 - Stacy

It is. It was also, I think, equally sad for me and for everyone. I guess my father is old and his wife. He's her caregiver. She's disabled and has multiple cancer and heart attacks and all these things. She's still kicking, but he's like her character. He could not travel with her six hours south to help with this, to attend the funeral. We set up a video so that he could watch the service or whatever. It was just a weapon that became a weapon, which is too bad but really solidifies A lot of choices that I made previously that are back in the place now that this is over. We took care of all that. My therapy was on Fridays because of my work. We have Flex Friday every other week. Every other week I have my Friday therapy scheduled so that I can do it on my day off. I went ahead, I text my therapist and I was like something happened. 

0:38:58 - Maya

You were already in therapy Stacy. I just want to make sure everyone understands that you were already doing therapy for all of the family stuff that you had gone through Then. Obviously, now you lose Katie Jo, and this is even more. 

0:39:13 - Stacy

My children became adults and I was terrified that I was going to be my mother and they would not want to be around me. I started going to therapy to make sure that I wasn't going to be that and I'm not. I already had a therapist that I had been seeing her for about a year and a half I guess. I did get to meet with her and I met with her in my car in front of my mother's house. It was good to be able to have that little bit of pep talk, because what she had been working with me on was issues with my mother. She could help me with that side of it while I was there dealing with the other shocking part of it. She helped me with that little bit of. I don't really remember a lot. I did a lot of work. 

0:40:10 - Maya

It's a weird time. It's a very weird time. 

0:40:14 - Stacy

Being crying, listening to songs over and over again, watching videos, looking at messages. I know it's for weeks and weeks and there are times that I would just start bawling. My husband so bless his heart he's just there, 100%. I just need to go outside and cry for a little bit. Whatever, he's 100% there. 

0:40:42 - Maya

I think it's not always the case. That's another part of your story. There's a couple of things I want to point out to you. Stacey is sometimes a death like this losing a sibling it can create a wedge in your marriage. I've watched this happen with a lot of people and a lot of people talk about this. Some of you guys have had this, or some of you guys have had really supportive partners like you, stacey, where they're like. I might not understand this from a first person perspective, but I'm here for you. I wish I had a definition for why this happens, but it just does. Some people handle it very differently as being the support person. 

I think that's really amazing. I think that it can, even though it's so difficult, and it can pull you apart, but it can really bring you closer together. When you go through these difficult times in a relationship, it shows you where the heart and soul of your relationship is. I think it can be difficult sometimes for people to listen to someone that goes through that experience and says, yeah, my spouse is really there for me, but I've never seen it be anywhere in the middle. Really, it's kind of one way or another. It's like family. It's like you talking about your family dynamic, and that's why I'm really happy for you that you have this beautiful marriage and a husband that's been so supportive. 

But I want to ask you something. I want to go back just a little bit and I want to ask you about this, because the reality is, katie Jo was definitely in a domestic violence situation. This is how she was killed. This is how she was lost. Were there any? Now that you're going through social media, now that you've looked back on all this, and now that you've talked to piecing all this together the name is on the arm, all of this stuff, what do you think was happening? Kind of, walk us through that, because this is something we haven't talked about enough on the show is domestic violence. This is something I want to bring even more awareness to, because, yes, she was shot, but this is a part of domestic violence. I don't think this was the first just me going out on a limb and, knowing you, I doubt this was the first occurrence that happened between them. That was probably abusive, I would say Right. 

0:42:59 - Stacy

I don't know if he was physically abusive to her. I will say that the tattoo on the arm was a red flag big time. I am covered in tattoos. I started getting them the minute that I was legal to get them and I have always told my children and my sister don't put somebody's name on you, don't do it, not even your children. I don't want my children's name on. My children have tattoos that they picked out for me or they designed for me. That's when I have tattooed, not their name. I just don't. It's just not a for me. It's like don't, just don't the permanence, just don't do it. I don't know why. No one ever. I don't ever had any experience with that, but I know. 

It's just your thing, it's your thing. I told her don't cook. When her tattoo that she had, it was like it was like this beautiful, like arm piece of roses, but his name was kind of like strategically, the letters of his name were strategically placed in it so it wasn't just like lifted, you know, it wasn't like that, but his name was within this tattoo and I knew that's what it was when I saw her arm, because I had been able to see her Instagram or whatever Facebook I'd seen something before during that week because a lot of people were sending us pictures and stuff like that that we could use. Because she had us all blocked so we couldn't access, even looking at her stuff until Facebook, I guess, granted my mother permission to make it a memorial page. So, anyway, that was a huge red flag and I, you know, I don't know, I don't know what the answer is to the no contact is a huge red flag when you are normally speaking with someone, even if it is just on their birthday or your birthday. If that passes and you don't, there's something going on Like that is not okay. 

And I think when my birthday and her birthday had passed, it was like, um, something's not right, but I don't know what you're supposed to do about it, because I was blocked from everything. I didn't know where she was. The guy that she had lived with wasn't answering me which, by the way, afterward, I met him that week that she died, and he had actually moved from California also not with her just for a different job opportunity and he was so mortified he was like I'm so sorry, I wish I would have. I wish I would have told you. She told me not to tell you. She told me not to tell you where she is. Wow, um, so she was really trying to hide this. 

0:45:54 - Maya

Right, and I think is is one of the reasons I wanted to make sure we talked about this aspect of it, because that's a big red flag, right. Like doing things like again, she looked at you as her mother figure, she got this tattoo. That was not something that you wouldn't have supported. That's a red flag, right. But then there became these like waving red flags coming from, like a ship coming in right. Like you know, you're going no contact and you and I are both not strangers to um, going no contact, but those are for different reasons. Like if someone wanted to speak to me and my family that I have no contact with and something was really wrong, I would speak to them. That's not you know, um, but just kind of falling off the face of the earth. You don't even know what you're living, you don't know what's happening Huge red flag, my mother knows where. 

0:46:42 - Stacy

No contact, because I have said we're no contact. I am not. I do not want to talk to the boundary. 

0:46:47 - Maya

It's different. It's not. I think that's a huge part of your story here with Katie and Joe Stacey is that you know that's a make a red flag when they just kind of fall off the face of the earth and you're like, wait a second, like you're trying to create some um and you know anonymous kind of reality for themselves and you know it's kind of you know they're choosing who to share what with and it's interesting and I think it's an important story to tell because it's it's control is what is happening from the other person. And I think it's hard because you're never going to know. That's something that I think a lot of us who deal with homicide, suicide, so many different unknown types of losses, like we're never. 

Domestic violence is in there because, like, you're dealing with multiple aspects, but domestic violence is definitely a part of this story and you're never going to have all the answers and that's such a hard thing. So, how, how have you been able to move forward? Because this is you're just over two years into your journey, stacey. So how are you able to move forward, not having all the answers? Because that's something I struggled with so bad. I know a lot of you guys struggled with that too. So I think this is such a huge question, especially for the way you lost Katie Joe. 

0:48:01 - Stacy

Well, I I really do feel like I have most of the answers. I don't have answers as to what concrete, as to why she had kind of disappeared off the face of the earth. I know that she did still talk to my dad but she also knew that he was safe and surface level and oh I love you, how's your day? Happy birthday. That kind of like he wasn't going to be probing into her life. He didn't know she had moved back to Texas either. He actually talked to her that day on her birthday so she did answer when he called that day. So I don't have answers to that. I do know a few things. Like she was getting involved in some really weird name. It claim it mega church and just kind of weird religious stuff. And I say weird because it was weird for her. We grew up Methodist, which is like super liberal religiousness, and I'm not religious and she wasn't really religious either at that time. That you know she at this time in her life. 

But this man, her boyfriend's boss, was part of the bench trial because he had texted him that night. He texted his boss something like what do you do? What do you do when you want to just kill a woman because it would be better for all of humanity or something like that, oh my gosh. And he was like, uh, what you know like just said weird, like some weird things like that. He obviously testified Lost, he didn't. He did not testify because it was just a binge trial. He pled guilty, a trial by just judge, but we did have a little bit of you know, witnesses or whatever, but his, his, uh, information was it within the, the information that the DA presented? Um, because he, you know, handed over those messages or whatever? Um, so he's, he's kind of um, clued me in on a lot of things that were kind of going on with them, because he was close with them. And, um, unfortunately, his wife has the same name as my sister, literally first and last, and they changed their Facebook name to be like a married couple Facebook page, so it wasn't just her name, cause they felt so bad, um, but that's crazy in itself, um, but you know, so I've learned a lot of things after um, I do know that. You know it was crazy. 

We went to, I knew, I knew where they had been, um, I think, from talking to the police, to the detective, um, we knew the last place they had been. And when my husband came down during the weekend for the funeral, we, we actually went to this little bar that they had been at. There was nobody there, it was completely empty except us. And um, we, just, I just was like I just want to be where she was. We sat down, we ordered some like pizza rolls and a beer, whatever. And this guy comes in, one of the bartenders, and he was like hey, um, we need to call the manager. He said the police are the police, said they're coming down to check something and they need him here like in the next 10 minutes. And she was like oh, is this about that girl that got murdered? 

And you guys were sitting there, I'm sitting there and I looked at her and I was like that was my sister. It just came out and her face was just like white as a ghost and she was like I am so sorry, I'm like it's okay, that's actually, I'm just here, because this was the last place she was. She was like, oh my God, I am so sorry. Like she was so apologetic, but I mean they had this bar that they were at, had just like installed these HD cameras with with sound and video, like literally a month before. So there was a lot of footage to go through for that from that night. But from what I know from the trial and what the DA presented was, there was a moment in time where my sister told Clifton, it's over, we're done. 

And they got in the car and left and it was about not even a mile down the road between the bar and the highway. They turned off on this little road and I guess there was a four way stop and he stopped. He got out of the car, came around, opened the passenger door and he shot her and he shot her 20 times. He had like some weird extended clip or something. He hit her 19, shot 20. She ended up in the driver's seat trying to back away from him and probably from the force of just getting shot. 

And I went there. I went there to that intersection and I laid flowers there and it was just such a quiet little place, obviously a poor neighborhood, an old poor neighborhood. And just to think, like the people in that community, having to hear that at 10.30, at nine you know during the week, how terrifying that must have been, how terrifying it must have been for my sister, like she was dead when they got there. And I know I think I shared in the group that I had that video that somebody shared with me of him actually getting beanbagged by the police. He wouldn't put his gun down. 

0:53:56 - Maya

Every report that they have says he was being bullet-drawn and refusing to, you know, put his weapon away or whatever, which is just clear evidence that he was not in his right state of mind and there was definitely mental things going on there and saying like I'm an American citizen, and they were like okay, like what do you like? 

0:54:18 - Stacy

so I know that they were both very intoxicated, but you don't get to do that to somebody just because you're intoxicated. So no, no you're a gun person, like they both were, apparently. You don't take your gun out with you to a bar when you know you're going to be drunk. You take an Uber and you're going to home. 

0:54:40 - Maya

I was going to say I was like we can even back up even more, right, Girl, like we back up. You don't drive, you take an Uber. You don't bring firearms with you, you don't like if you know you're going to a bar and you're not going to be the DD, like come on, like, come on. And clearly there was issues going on in the relationship and so, yeah, I mean it's just all. It all is such an eerie scene, but I really appreciate you sharing that with us because I think it's important. 

You know, like, a lot of people have come on here and shared a lot of details and I think it just makes us, even though it's so hard to share it, it makes us feel less alone, even though every situation is so, so different, but like we can all connect. But I think it's interesting to see how you're able to kind of put yourself in that situation and I think it shows a deep empathy in you and you're like, look at this neighborhood, look at I can connect with you doing that because, like that's how I am too with like my brother's story and with other people's stories too, and especially when I see a place where it happened or, like you're, it's very, it's indescribable, it's just like you're living it. You're in that moment, and I think it does take a certain level of empathy to really go there. Whether that's good or bad, I don't know, sometimes right, You're able to go that deep. 

0:55:56 - Stacy

Yeah, it was just I don't know. I stood there and I could, like I could just tell that it was a place that things would echo very loudly and like the sound would just resonate over, I mean in 20 times like. 

I live out in the woods now and people hunt all around me and all I find myself doing when I hear gunshots, like cause it's, you know, dawn to dusk, you can hunt If somebody's shooting a gun. I'm counting, I'm just counting how many shots it is. My brain is still trying to understand what 20 gunshots sounds like, you know. 

0:56:31 - Maya

I live in the city and I hear gunshots all the time I'm with you and I don't know that I've ever heard 20. Like that's very. It's a lot to really think about. I mean, like people you know living in a major city, people be like oh my God, I just heard three or four gunshots. Oh my God, I just heard five or six. It's crazy. 

I'm like, and it's probably firecrackers, right, yeah, and it's like 20, like that's a whole other level. There's definite intent there. So when you obviously you guys went to court, it sounds like this was a pretty locked sign, seal delivered situation for you. Yeah, when you guys went through that. 

0:57:11 - Stacy

Yeah, they took him to custody that night and they had posted it because you know, like you post mug shots or whatever in the Facebook groups, like the police scanner groups or whatever, and I think his initial bond was like 200,000 or 250,000 or something like that, something low. But they do that because they are looking at this person and saying you don't have the resources to come up with 25K overnight. So this will be fine until somebody can look at it in the morning. So one stay because they initially just charged him with murder, like straight out murder. So in Texas you've got murder and you've got capital murder. Capital murder is like in the commission of another felony or old person or a very young person or something like that. So it was just murder. 

And then, when the district is trying to look at the next morning, they upgraded it to murder one and a like reckless use of firearms. It increased, it increased his bond or bail to, I think, 1.25 million. So there was just no way he was getting out and he was in custody until they had the. He pled guilty to the plea agreement. No, he did not take a plea agreement, he just pled guilty and asked for a bench trial. So the plea agreement was 50 years. In Texas you have to serve half up to 30. So 30 would be the maximum. 

0:58:43 - Maya

Texas is a lot like Georgia. Yeah, very similar yeah. 

0:58:46 - Stacy

So they had offered him 50 years, which would mean mandatory 25. Right, so he did not take it. He did plead guilty and the district attorney was like, okay, 60. We're going for the max because 30 would be the minimum that he would have to serve. And that's what he got. He had people from his family testify on his behalf. He had the other on again, off again girlfriend testify on his behalf and his brother was talking like you know, I'll have a place for him to live in, a job for him, when he gets out, and I'm like I can't even I can't even imagine I mean as much as I love my siblings like if something like that happened I would be like I'm sorry, I can't. 

0:59:30 - Maya

You know, there's just I can't imagine. But then again, I've never run in that situation, you know. 

0:59:35 - Stacy

But they were. They were in such denial Like he literally thought like maybe he was going to get out in like five years or something and he could just come live with his brother and work. 

0:59:43 - Maya

And I'm like he was probably thinking maybe a manslaughter charge, which is, you know what happened in my situation, which he completely skirtailed out of because you know it was such a horrific situation. But like your situation is a completely horrific situation and like, but they got him, like he was there. I mean these guys flee the scene with my brother, like this. They got him, he's there, like dude, you're it's done, it's over, you're like holding the gun. 

1:00:09 - Stacy

Yeah, I'm honestly. Then and again in my I'll occasion, in my victim impact statement, I said that I'm I'm grateful for you. I'm staying there and not just dumping her on the side of the road for everybody to wonder what happened. Right, because he could have left. He could have left. 

1:00:26 - Maya

That's what happened to my brother, and so, yeah, I can understand, I think some people that aren't so familiar with homicide. I'd say, like I would you say something like that in your victim's advocate statement, but like it's weird things that you are grateful for that happen in those situations, because you don't I mean you're never going to get justice, because you're not going to get sweet Katie Jo back. You know it's just not going to happen, but you know getting him away from anybody else that he can harm for as long as possible is a gift, right, like that's the I mean it's not her, but it's like what gifts can we get from this is often what I say from grief and loss, especially traumatic loss like this. And so I can completely understand why you would say something like that, because I would say something very much like that too, like thanks for saying there, because at least you're behind bars for X amount of time, right? 

1:01:17 - Stacy

And then you can do another sweet Katie. Jo, you know, like everyone knows what happened, yeah, and you know he's already, he's already been through enough. I mean, it moved very quickly. Even though a year it was, it felt like such a long time and it kept getting postponed, postponed, but you know he was sentenced right before Thanksgiving, I think. 

1:01:36 - Maya

Yeah, it was right before Thanksgiving you were like a year on the dot Pretty much. 

1:01:39 - Stacy

Yeah, and he's actually already been through his appellate attorney that was appointed and they were like, yeah, you have no grounds for appeal. Bye, no man. 

1:01:48 - Maya

No, no See, I want to ask you a really important question about that, about victims advocates. They may not know this is a little bit of a longer episode, but this is like something we get a lot, do you? I think I know your answer already, but there's some people that are quite hesitant to give a victim's advocate statement right. Sometimes they're like I don't want to go up there and see the guy or the girl that did this to my brother or my sister, or, fill in the blank, if you're listening and you're just grieving, right In general, and it's a different situation for you, this is homicide or whatever domestic violence, anything that's confolded on any of these categories. But I feel like with your personality, my personality like we would never regret that I didn't get that opportunity. I feel robbed of that opportunity. 

I sometimes feel like season one was kind of my victim's advocate statement right, and I'm sure a lot of you guys can understand that. But you were able to do your victim's advocate statement and some people have mixed emotions about it. But I always tell people I'm like, look, I didn't get to do it and that's some of the reason I did season one. I always say do it If there's something in you, even a little bit, that's saying I want, I'm like, go for it. I always want to get the advice of people who have gone through that process. Like, what was that like for you? I'm sure you don't have any regrets, but like, what advice would you give to people that are maybe not as outspoken as us to do that? 

1:03:15 - Stacy

right. I mean honestly, if you don't even have the option of doing it, that's awful and you should, and find an outlet. If you don't, If you're given the opportunity, I would say write it out and sleep on it and read it to somebody that you trust. You know, even though I was not in a place of trust with the other people in my family, we did sit down and each read our impact statements and I told my mother that hers was making her a victim and this wasn't about us being victims. This is about the impact on the victims. So you don't need to have a statement that lets this person know that you are victimized by their crime as much as just to speak your piece and I started mine, knowing that this person is a complete narcissist. I started my statement telling him how much I felt for him being locked away and not able to have Thanksgiving or Christmas or birthday with his family, and how awful it must be and lonely and all of those things. And then I just said look at me. And then I just started talking and I mean I had it written out and it was long, but when I left the courtroom for the recess before the judge came back. 

The district attorney and two other people within the district attorney's office came to me and they were like that is literally the best victim impact statement I have ever heard, oh my God. 

So my message to him was I want you to know that I know I know you can lie, you can say you didn't remember, you can say that nothing else was going on, but I, Stacey, know what happened and I know my sister and I told him I'm glad and angry that you were the last person to see her, because I hate that you were the last thing that she saw. But you absolutely deserve to be played with the memory of what she looked like in your truck, with 20 bullets in her body to haunt your nightmares and the rest of your life. You absolutely deserve that. I mean, they let me see her arm only because she had been shot in the head, chest, arms, everything like the cover over her body didn't look like there was a person under there and I really did want to see her. But I guess I'm kind of glad that I didn't, because I do think that he's the one that deserves to be living with that haunting image, not me. 

1:06:29 - Maya

Yeah, I think there's so much power in your statement with that Stacey, because I think that's another thing, too, that we have to remember. With traumatic deaths like this, too is like you really in such a shock state of mind and you're not really making decisions the way that you normally would right, not always logically and so you know for you to say, like that was the right decision. Like I saw her arm, I knew it was her. Like that was also a part of the piece of the puzzle was seeing the tattoo, you knew it was her, though, and like that was enough for you and you know I say this a lot on the, on the podcast, especially in my first season I told my story right. 

I think everybody needs a certain amount of answers. Some people need less. They don't want to know. Some people need a lot. They're like us, you know, like a lot of you guys listening, I'm sure, are the same way. That's why you're listening to the show, I'm sure, but we all need a certain amount of answers, which I think to go back just for a second to what you said earlier in the episode, where you're like you feel like you got the answers that you needed, and that's the thing, that's what's so key, I think, on this journey of grief and loss is you're able to move forward. 

When you are like, okay, I've gotten enough answers because you're not going to get justice, you're not going to get all, you're not going to know ever, say it's not going to be a movie, you're not going to get ever yeah, there's a closure, there's no. 

You have to get to a place where you're like, okay, I got the answers that I need, I'm okay with this, and like you were able to sit there and look this guy in the face and be like you get to sit with that, not me. You did this, you know, and I think there's a lot of power in that. I really appreciate you because I know that's very difficult to share that part of the story, but I get this question all the time about homicide and the victims advocate statement. So I really appreciate you sharing that because you know, do you do it, do you not do it? And I always vote do it, do it if you have the opportunity, but you know it's. You know when they, these types of people that do these, these types of things, kill people, they are they're not empathetic, sympathetic to your point right. So you playing to that and just being like you know I'm not feeling. 

1:08:41 - Stacy

I wanted to listen to me so I played to it. But you know another thing is that when you have an advocate statement and when you are when you are saying well, at least in Texas, they send you a victim package and you fill it out and it says do you want to do an advocate statement or impact statement? And then you say yes, you can send it to the district attorney and the district attorney will present it to the judge for you. They will read it for you. You can have somebody else read it. So if, if somebody is too nervous or uncomfortable or scared or whatever it is, it because it is hard to look somebody straight and killed your sibling on purpose. 

You know that's, it's terrifying, but you know, I sat in the first row, as close to this man as I could get, and my husband said you were literally just laser focus watching this man the whole time. 

And the only thing that I really remember is every time his nervous foot would start shaking up and down, he was sitting, like where his chair was there was like a, like a metal cover, like they do in carpeted rooms where there's like a plug under it but they cover with metal, and those chains around his ankles would hit that metal cover and it would make a little noise and then he'd stop and he'd try to move his feet but he couldn't move far enough away. Like that noise is like ingrained in my brain, that impact statement. There's not another opportunity to do that, because even if you're in a state where you can email or connect with an inmate, they don't have to read it, they don't have to respond to you, don't have to acknowledge it at all. If you can get your statement out and that's why I say, write it out, let it sit, roll it around, read it to a friend and then decide do I want to do this? Can somebody else do this? Can the I? 

1:10:39 - Maya

love that advice, stacy. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah, because it's true. 

1:10:43 - Stacy

Where you wanted to go. It doesn't really matter how it gets there, but you are not going to have another opportunity to do that right Afterward. There's no guarantee that you will ever have. 

1:10:52 - Maya

I rather you do it scared than regret it. That's how I feel in life. Do it scared and if that means like you're so freaked out and you have someone else read it, I still think you're so brave, because just putting those words down and putting it out there, I think it's huge. So thank you for because most places you can do that have somebody else read it you're absolutely right. So I think that was really important, that you did it, and I think it's important in your journey for sure. 

1:11:16 - Stacy

Yeah, it really is. 

1:11:18 - Maya

Tell us a little bit about. I know we've got a little long on this episode, but there's just so much to unpack with your story. Stacy, I'm a talker Tell us a little bit. No, it's just. It's a very complex story, right, and it's something you know. We've covered homicide before, obviously, with my story. A couple other guests that have been on with really traumatic stories as well. But there's a domestic violence, you know, aspect to this. There's an aspect of you getting involved, you know, and being able to give your statement and just things that aren't always possible, and so it's important that we talk about those things. But I want to talk about something that you guys have heard during this episode and talk about the peace initiative. Tell us a little bit about that and how that played into your sisters obviously her life, but then also, after we lost Katie Joe, tell us a little bit about that because I think that's a uplifting way to kind of yeah, through the story. 

1:12:11 - Stacy

Yeah, the peace initiative is a local nonprofit in San Antonio, which is where she eventually, you know, grew up for some of her life. She she was a person that supported a lot of causes. Her, her main cause, was, like wounded warriors, which I don't know, maybe she just had a like a lot of veterans that she trained with or something like that. When she died I was looking for a place that I could help support in that community. That would kind of be relevant, I guess, like we put it on her obituary and the flowers. But the peace initiative is, they do crisis and intervention, but they do education, not just with the public, not just women and children. They do education with the police, the district attorney's office and the sheriff's office. They do education on domestic violence and what it looks like. You know, like she told me when I was speaking with her the other day that the number one cause of domestic violence homicide. Down there is strangulation, which is terrifying. But they have to know that kind of thing because they are making sure that everybody knows that and what to look for and how to defend yourself and where to get help, and they offer a lot of resources. So they've been around I think since late 90s I'm not 100% sure but it is a local group, a very small nonprofit. I think there are five people that run this and they the statistics of people that they've helped and educated and speeches that they've done in classes and all these things. 

I wish that everyone knew that they existed. I wish that my sister knew that there was a place like that that she could go to, and so I really have. I've done a couple of fundraisers for them and other people have as well. And Katie's memory, just to, I want to, I want to get their name out there, because it is a very big city of marginalized folks and minority folks and poor folks and you know people that don't necessarily even have like Facebook to go. So I want to, I really want, even if it's not them, that is the help that somebody needs. They know exactly the right place to send somebody in that community and it's San Antonio is a huge, huge town, huge city, and there's so many suburbs around, like New Braunfels, it's down there, like it's all down there in that general area. 

So if I say San Antonio, I'm talking about San Antonio proper and then probably like 20 other little cities, that half of them are Mexican words that I can't even say because that part of you know, you know Texas is still very Mexican population heavy, hispanic population heavy, because you know it used to be Mexico. So, yeah, so there's, it's a. It's a lot, a lot of work down there that they've done and they, they do a great job. I'm really proud of the work that they do and I've, you know, really enjoyed speaking with them and I want to make sure that if there is anybody in that area of the country that they know that that's a resource for them and if anybody's looking to help a resource like that. That's a place that is literally five people for the last 25 years. 

They will take the help. 

1:16:09 - Maya

I'm sure right if you want to give back, if domestic violence is something that you're passionate about and it's impacted you or something that you're just passionate about, right, like I'm passionate about it and it's something that's near and dear to my heart, and I love that. 

And even if you're not local to San Antonio, like you said, they can guide you with the right way, like how you can contribute in your local areas to. So I'm really excited that you're getting their name out here, stacy, because it's really helping. You know, it's going to help so many people and then also grow them, which is cool. But you know, the most important part is it's a part of Katie Joe's story and it needs to be told right. The good, the bad, the ugly, all of it needs to be told when we tell these stories, and so I really appreciate you supporting us and supporting them, because we like to bring these kinds of organizations together so that we can move to a more positive place, because it is really about having resources and knowledge to be able to overcome things like this. 

1:17:10 - Stacy

Yeah, it really is, you're right. So, yeah, awesome. 

1:17:14 - Maya

Well, you guys will hear about them. You'll get to click in the show notes and connect with them and, again, super excited that you decided to support them and support us. Stacy, tell us kind of, bring us home and close this out on the episode. This has been amazing. Thank you for being so open about this. Again, it's a question I get all the time. Victims advocate like the whole story, how the process goes and you've been great with us. Is there anything else that you'd like to share with us? You're just over two years into your grief journey. We all know that. You know year one is such a fog. Your two is just paid and then you're kind of coming out of it now. Anything that I missed, anything that you want to share with all of us surviving siblings, any knowledge or any takeaways that maybe we missed during the conversation? I think? 

1:18:05 - Stacy

above everything, because everyone has their own narrative. I wrote my sister's obituary, I wrote my sister's eulogy and I wrote my victim impact statement. Those three things together were very cathartic and I hand wrote them so that I had just that that tactile situation of writing something like ink on paper with my favorite pen and I kept them in there in my little box with all her stuff. But being open not just with yourself, I think, for myself it was it. It kind of felt shitty, I guess, to say I hadn't talked to her in a year Almost because I hadn't been able to, because I didn't, she didn't want me to, or whatever. Like that's a really hard truth to sit with. 

1:19:20 - Maya

But how are you moving through that? Because it's something that comes up a lot to say is. You're bringing up so many topics that come up. How do you, how are you moving through not being able to speak to her, that you didn't speak? Because that's something I hear all the time. Too right, when people write to me or come to group or come to come to tiktok or come to Instagram, they're like I didn't speak to them for months, for years, like how are you moving through that? Because I feel like, even in the time, in even the couple of months I've known you, you're, you're moving through that, so can you share a little bit of that with us? 

1:19:51 - Stacy

That's hard. It is, I feel like, again, when you're honest with yourself and when you're honest about everything that has happened. I know that I didn't talk to her because something bad was happening. She did not give me a way to help her. She did not give me an in to help her. She didn't let me contact her. 

I am confident that I could not have done anything else other than what I did in the communication. I attempted Calling the police to find out. Can you even figure anything out? There's nothing else I could have done, especially at the time that I didn't know where she was. I have to be at peace with the fact that I love her. I know that she loved me and respected me. I know that she was scared to disappoint or whatever she was scared to do with me. There's nothing else I could have done. 

You can look at. Did I do this? Did I do this? Yeah, I did. This is what I did. This is all I could have done. That's how I've gotten through it. I'm not sure how that would go for somebody who isn't in that situation where they were actively trying. You just have to look back on what you did and know that, no matter what? Unless you killed your own sibling, their death is not your fault, no matter what, you didn't do anything to cause it, unless you actually killed them. Whether they were sick or murdered or accident or whatever, no matter what you did, unless you killed them, it's not your fault. 

1:21:47 - Maya

I agree, stacy and I think that's how you eventually start to release that guilt. 

1:21:53 - Stacy

What if you're self to death? But the fact of the matter is, you did what you did and they did what they did, and it's over and you have to just be settled with it. You can still write them letters, you can still think about them. I literally thought about calling her the other day to ask her who her ex-boyfriend was when I was thinking about. I wonder if this guy knows she died. 

1:22:20 - Maya

I'm like what that's grief-brain, right, it's totally normal. 

1:22:25 - Stacy

It's always going to be there and it's terrible, but I'm really appreciative of this group and this community and the small groups. It's so cathartic and healing even just to tell your story, but also to hear other people's stories so that you can be like, oh yes, yes, oh my God. I feel that I have told a few people that I was going to do this with you and I realized that three of them are friends of mine who have lost a sibling. Oh wow, I didn't even think about it. They weren't murdered, they just died or whatever. But I think one suicide and one died and two died. But I was like, oh my God, I didn't even think of that. Because I don't talk about it. I don't bring that up all the time. I don't bring theirs up, I don't bring mine up. I was giving out some bear traps for a very long time. It's a very beginning. People are assuming that I was gone for two weeks because I had COVID or whatever. I'm like eh no nobody. 

But yeah, it's tough and it lasts forever, but if you have good friends and good listeners and people that can relate. I was that one theater production that I was working on I did actually go finish it and it was the last one that I did and there was a lady in the audience who was an actress that I've worked with before and she said, hey, I just want to tell you that my sister was murdered 25 years ago and I knew what you're going through and if you ever need to talk to somebody and I'm just like what? 

1:24:10 - Maya

Isn't it interesting, the people that come out of like literally the woodwork, and you're like, it's like and it's in your everyday life, so it's really interesting. So I love your. That's crazy and I've had so many experiences happen to me like that over the past seven years too. Stacy, and it's like shook me because it's not someone I ever would have thought. Like you said, like this actress is there and like and it just it's a testament to the fact that it's so important that we do tell our story and that we do open up and that we do share, because you never know who's gone through something similar to you. 

1:24:43 - Stacy

Especially because there's not a word for it. There's not a word for what we are. We are a big sister who lost a little brother, or a younger sister who lost a big brother, or whatever. Whatever you are, you're not like a widow, you know he like. There's not a word for it, so there's not a group for it. And I'm very surprised at the amount of people that I see coming into sibling loss groups where, like my brother died yesterday and I'm like the last thing two years later, I'm like there's any groups about loss of your sibling. Like two years, Yesterday my brother died. I'm like, holy crap, like maybe I'm just old, I'm 46. So maybe just a little bit old. I don't realize that that exists. 

1:25:27 - Maya

I mean, I feel the same way, stacy, I'm like I'm in shock, you know, and like I'm in awe and like there, you know, there's people in our, in our support group that you're a part of, to our monthly support that we do, where, like they're have anticipatory grief, some of them just lost, and I'm like I'm blown away by them. I'm like you guys inspire me, like I wasn't even ready to open this whole thing up until five years, so like I'm totally inspired. So I think also, it's you know that's another part of this where you know grief has its own timeline. You know it's. I mean there's some people that are ready, you know, they think you know the day it happens, or the day after, or sometimes it's 20 years down the pike. It's whatever is going to work for you. So I appreciate you being open and honest about that too, stacy, where you can find us chatting in group, right, they can join us in group. 

And I think are you in our I think you're in our private Facebook group too, right? Yes, I think I am, okay, perfect. So if someone wants to connect with you, join our group. We'd love to see you there. It's a very small. We like to keep it small, but we'll let you in. We'll let you in, so, stacy. Thank you so much. Any last pieces of advice for siblings going through such a tragic event of losing another sibling. 

1:26:43 - Stacy

Just to not ever expect that wave of grief to be gone forever, because it's not. It's going to hit you and it's okay. Go in a closet and cry and get it out and come back to life and move forward and just expect that it's going to happen, because it's going to happen, it's going to happen always and it's okay that it happens, because somebody that you thought you'd have forever and ever is gone and your brain and your heart are going to grieve that forever. So true. 

1:27:13 - Maya

Stacy, thank you so much for being here and sharing all of this and supporting us and supporting the Peace Initiative. We really appreciate it. It's been awesome. Thank you so much for listening to the Surviving Siblings podcast. If you enjoyed this episode as much as I did creating it for you, then share it on your chosen social media platform and don't forget to tag us at Surviving Siblings podcast so that more surviving siblings can find us. Remember to rate, review and subscribe to the podcast, and don't forget to follow us on all social media platforms. We're on Instagram, Twitter and TikTok at Surviving Siblings podcast. All links can be found in the show notes, so be sure to check those out too. Thank you again for the support. Until the next episode, keep on surviving my surviving siblings.