Sisterhood Amidst Adoption and Addiction

0:00:01 - Maya

Hi guys, welcome back to the Surviving Siblings podcast. I have another amazing surviving sibling here with me today. I have Sarah, who's going to share her story about losing her sister, jenny. Sarah, welcome to the podcast. Thank you, glad to be here. We're super happy to have you here as well, and it's always bittersweet. As I often say to my guests right, love meeting other surviving siblings, but it's also a painful experience to go through. So, sarah, tell us a little bit about Jenny, so we know a little bit about your sister, and tell us a little bit about your dynamic with Jenny. 

0:00:37 - Sarah

Sure. So Jenny was my older sister. She was seven years older than me and we grew up in a little town in Southern California, out in the desert outside of Joshua Tree, and we were both adopted at a young age. Jenny was a little bit older when she was adopted and my parents couldn't have children, and so that's how we met each other. I was adopted seven years later and she, like most big sisters, like all older siblings, was larger than life to me and I was a big fan of her and everyone called her Jen the Hen and they called me Sarah Chickadee or you know some sort of riff on Jen the Hen or something like that, and we had a really great childhood. 

Our adoption was always front and center, because my parents are Italian and Irish and my sister Jenny was half Hispanic, half Mexican and she excelled through school. She was a cheerleader and always really outgoing People really loved her. She was almost six feet tall I think she was 5'11" and blonde hair, light blue eyes, the softest hands you've ever felt, and she was a hit early on. And then she was a bit of a partier. She was kind of known around our small town as a bit of a partier drinker, and so she kept the party going. 

We lived together for a few years after college and after I went to college and I noticed that the drinking had become a little bit more regular. But that was kind of who she was. Around town, she was always known as someone who would have a good time, and so, as we got older, she died when she was 40 years old, and that was back in July of 2020, and I had noticed through the years I have a young family and so she never got married or had any children, but she was always an excellent aunt and the kids loved her, and and and. But she was always an excellent aunt and the kids loved her, and I'm trying to figure out how to transfer to you know current times. 

0:03:15 - Maya

You know that's fine, so OK, yeah. So actually Jenny sounds like somebody that I probably would have hung out with. Yeah, yeah. 

0:03:21 - Sarah

She was the oldest. 

0:03:22 - Maya

Yeah, I was a cheerleader too, Big partier. Things changed for me when I got out of high school, though. A was great, and I think a lot of younger siblings have that larger than life image too of like their older siblings. 

I know that, like my youngest sibling has told me that before too Like oh my God, you guys were my older siblings, and so it's interesting that perspective, because there's 10 years between me and my youngest sibling, so I do understand that dynamic on the other side from probably Jenny's perspective, and that's interesting that you guys lived together and thanks for sharing so openly too about the adoption, because I think that's really I don't think that's really something we've talked a whole lot about on here before. Sarah is that dynamic and you guys were obviously from completely different families right, you were not related. 

Okay, no, not at all. Yeah, but I'm I'm quite a spiritual person and I think that there's a lot of people that listen to the show that have half siblings or adopted siblings, or you know just. There's all these different family dynamics and that's your sibling. That is 100% your sibling. You grew up with them. That is your sibling. So I'm really excited to to dive into this. 

0:05:02 - Sarah

Okay, so well, I can talk a little bit more about the adoption. Yeah, that's exactly what I was going to say. I can talk a little bit more about the adoption if you want. 

0:05:06 - Maya

Yeah, that's exactly what I was going to say Tell us a little bit more about the dynamic there just for a few minutes, because I think, again, it's an important part of your story definitely. 

0:05:16 - Sarah

Yeah, like I was saying, my parents don't look like me, which is no big deal, that's really common in adoption but Jenny really did look like me and so, even though she was quite a bit taller than me, she was blonde, we both had light eyes, and so I think that there was a little bit of even more bonding there, in that way that we sort of looked like each other. 

We used to sit down at the mall in Montclair Plaza and watch people that walked by and tell stories about maybe that's my mom, maybe that's my mom, you know, maybe that's my mom, maybe that's my mom, you know, maybe that's my dad, and we would always like pick the same people and we'd have these sort of elaborate stories, you know, like, well, maybe I'm Courtney Love's child, you know, and she had to give me up in these sort of, you know, adoption, adoption fever dreams or something, and so, yeah, we really did bond over our adoption. 

I think that it was something that we felt like other people couldn't understand and that we were adopted into the same family, that we could understand our parents in that light the person given up for adoption, the parent that gave up the child for adoption and then the parent that accepted that they were not going to have their ideal child and they were going to accept another child into their family. And so you know I think that I dealt with adoption maybe a little bit better than she did. She struggled with it quite a bit. We were both in closed adoption, so when she turned 18, she was able to go and find her biological family and she moved in with them. There was a lot of strife around that, from my understanding. 

0:06:59 - Maya

Well, because you were only 11 at that time, so you were quite young when she was doing that, got it. 

0:07:04 - Sarah

Okay yeah, and I kind of felt like it was at the time. So you were quite young when she was doing that, got it Okay yeah, and so and I kind of felt like it was, um, I at the time I was young and so I felt like it was um sort of mean of her to sort of move on to her biological family and uh, but we were able to heal that as time went on and but I did know, but I did know that she did struggle with that, especially just getting to know her biological family, and I think that that brings up a lot of pain for adoptees having to understand why they were put up for adoption. And, you know, making people understand that it's not necessarily always a better life, just a different life. 

0:07:59 - Maya

Making people understand that it's not necessarily always a better life, just a different life. I think that that was a big part of my sister's understanding of her adoption was just that she will touch a lot of people that have been adopted or have adopted or have any kind of experience in this area, because I think it's interesting that Jenny struggled with it in a different way than you, right. It's like you bonded through your childhood and then she went this very extreme path of going and living. That's really interesting and fascinating, and I really appreciate what you said, too, about the fact that there's like three different people, or really groups, right, that are affected by the adoption. 

That happens and everyone handles it differently, and I think it's interesting that you seem to hand Now, did you ever? This is quite a personal question, but did you ever? That's what we do on the show, yeah, um, did you ever feel like you? You were in close adoptions, but did you at 18? Did you feel like you wanted to go meet your biological family, like? Right did you have different experience than her? 

0:08:58 - Sarah

yeah, right, um, at 18 and I make this joke a lot, a lot I actually just felt like I had a lot of parents at 18 and I didn't need any more parenting at that point. I was just really parented, and so, you know, I kind of let that one simmer for a while. I didn't put in my adoption paperwork. The way that closed adoption works is the parent who gave you up for adoption which is typically both of them in some cases and then the adoptee both have to put in a request for the information to be given to the other, and so my biological mom put in the request the day I turned 18. I didn't put it in until I was in my mid-20s. 

0:09:38 - Maya

Interesting Mid-20s Okay. 

0:09:42 - Sarah

Yeah, and that decision was informed by my sister's experience with her adoptive I mean, her biological family and that just not going that well. Um, and so, yeah, as uh, and it wasn't necessarily that my sister spoke about her adoption very much, but, uh, when she did, she just spoke about it negatively and wasn't necessarily able to move past some of the stickier parts about, you know, not being wanted and those kinds of feelings. And after she died I actually, like I had mentioned, I had gone to EMDR therapy just to help me through the toughest moments of grief in that first year. But I noticed that it was the first time that my therapist had brought up the phrase adoption. Trauma to me was also at that time and I actually didn't know that that existed at all and I felt like I was sort of simultaneously learning about it and learning and grieving at the same time, and learning that my sister probably held this grief and didn't realize it, that our mother held this grief and didn't realize it, and that that probably had overshadowed a lot of her life. 

0:10:58 - Maya

Very well put, sarah. It's very interesting that you said that. I just had a recent conversation with someone on another podcast about how when we start to heal our grief or you know, the trauma around our grief and all these other things start to come up that are perhaps not healed within us and that's why healing can be kind of scary, can be kind of scary right and going down that path and we'll get into your therapy stuff in a little bit bit, because I'm a huge fan of therapy. 

0:11:26 - Sarah

If you know from my show I'm like going to therapy. 

0:11:28 - Maya

It's a great thing, and so I definitely want to chat about that. But I think it's so interesting that you brought that up, because I just was talking about this like a day ago on someone else's show and we were talking about how healing it sounds great. It sounds kind of glamorous, right, like let's go get healed and you know, but the reality is it's hard work because it starts to bring up anything else that might be creeping under the surface that you didn't even know or maybe didn't even process or really maybe didn't bug you in a way that someone else in the family or in the dynamic that you're in fill in the blank, right. 

0:11:59 - Sarah

Right. 

0:12:00 - Maya

Struggling with and then it can bring things to light. So it very interesting that that happened for you. So we're gonna come back to that. But I want to go back to so Jenny had this experience of going to. Like I'm sure a lot of adopted kids have felt like why wasn't? I wanted you know that whole feeling. It seems like you guys had different emotions behind that, but I'm sure you experienced that as well, going through adoption right? Yeah, like I'm, sure it's a natural question to feel yeah. 

0:12:32 - Sarah

I wanted you know there's never really an outlet to say this, because nobody really wants to hear this at your sister's funeral or anything but my sister kind of lived her life in a way that was really kind of reckless, not just in her habits but in the way that she spoke to you and she, just from the get go, was just in love with everyone. When she, when she opened the door, she just swung it wide open. You know, she wasn't, she was one of those people that if we had a budget, she'd spend it all up front and not really, you know, really worry about what's going to happen next. And so she did that in the words that she used, in the way that she dressed, and so, yeah, we had very different experiences. 

When it came to our adoption, I'm much more timid about it. I feel like once you open the door you can't shut it again, and she was more of the more the merrier when it came to that. I think that we just had different approaches. My approach was sort of like well, you know, you're never necessarily given up from a good situation. You know, it's not typically a good situation that you're leaving, and I was nervous about that, whereas she had a very close relationship with her mother, and I have a close relationship with her biological mother now. 

0:13:52 - Maya

Okay, yeah. 

0:13:52 - Sarah

And so that's developed over years, many years, and Carol's a wonderful woman. And another thing that I just want to highlight in this is that my parents were just so understanding of my sister going out and finding her biological family. I was the only one that maybe had reservations about it, and I think that that was exactly what Jenny needed. She needed the confidence to move and find who she was. It was important to her, and I think that that's advice that I would give if I could talk to any parents that are thinking about adopting is just let your child lead the conversational adoption, because it's a difficult and sticky one, and being open to their understanding of it is probably the best thing that you could do for them. 

0:14:50 - Maya

That is so beautiful. Yeah, thank you for sharing that, and I don't think that's the case for all adopted kids right. It's like they sometimes feel a certain way about it or, yeah, they think they know best Right. And so, yeah, kudos to your parents for giving Jenny the space and giving you the space to explore what you felt each one of you needed, right? I mean, that's pretty amazing. I mean, I think there's going to be a lot of people that connect with this, sarah for sure. 

I'm so glad we're talking about this and thanks for being so open about it. But so walk us through. So we know Jenny's a partier, we know she's a cheerleader. So walk us through what happens with her and kind of this progression, because, yes, her death is very, it's very tragic and it's an epidemic and it's something that's going on and it's something that needs to be talked about. So, again, so happy we're doing this episode to shed light on this. But walk us through. She's 18. She goes to live with her biological family. You know things evolve, you guys. You know she's still partying. Like tell us a little bit about what Jenny did for work and kind of where this evolved, because you were out of college, so she was probably around 30 when you guys lived together, Right? 

0:15:50 - Sarah

So tell us a little bit about how this kind of evolved. 

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So she, you know, was sort of a serial dater as well. She had a number of boyfriends over the years and they were, all you know, some of them less serious, but most of the time she would stay in a relationship for a few years, and so she also had a few jobs. When we lived together, she was working, she would on and off work as a dental assistant, and also she would work in escrow and real estate, and so she would keep jobs like that for maybe three years at a time, three to five years. She also did waitressing, like when she was younger, but nothing that was really something that like called to her for a long time. Probably dental assistant was the most consistent, and so she also, you know, didn't work consistently, which I think. 

One of the things that I want to talk about is that, um, I think that a lot of how I got to today, or how we got to my sister's overdose was, um, just miscommunication and secrets a lot of the time, um, I think that, uh, that was. I think that at the base of that was this underlying shame. Maybe that had to do with, um, just adoption in general and that relationship, um, but, uh, what I wanted to say was, um, that that inconsistency in her job and inconsistency in who she was dating made it difficult to keep all the details straight at times, and I think that that sort of wore on my parents and, I guess, eventually, me as well, because I had gotten married during that time, a few years after college, and then I now have two kids, and so I think that, yeah, like I said, the details were missed and I think that had there been a more cohesive understanding of how she was spending her time, we would have caught on to a lot of this earlier. It wasn't really until my son was a few years old, so this is probably like 20. My husband and I were married in 2011. 

And she was my maid of honor and she was just so, always so wonderful and supportive of my relationship with my husband and like of her nephew and niece, and she loved them so much. But so after I had my daughter, I kind of noticed that her jobs had gotten really inconsistent. She wasn't going to work really at all, and I had always wondered about how she was paying for things was always a question in my mind. But my parents own a few houses that they rent and so she was renting from them and so she didn't have rent to pay. Really, at that time I didn't know that necessarily, but and how old was she at this time? 

0:19:04 - Maya

Sarah, you said you just had your daughter. 

0:19:06 - Sarah

Yeah, so she was 35 at that time. My daughter was, oh I'm sorry 34. So in between that time, you know, she was, like I said, just jobs on and off. She would have money here and there. She'd be traveling around. She lived with her biological mom's brother for a time and then also would spend time with her biological father as well. Her biological mom and father weren't together, but she had amicable relationships with both of them and she had a close relationship with her father's daughter, so her half sister, and so, yeah, I had kind of noticed I mean, it was kind of something that was known. My sister was a real drinker, really, from like 30, you know, when she was 30 years old, she was a really established drinker and she was also a smoker, mostly vaping, and so that nightlife mixed with having an inconsistent daytime job, I think, was just sort of her routine really for a number of years. 

A number of years and it was when I was pregnant with my son in 2018 was when I started to ask around some of our cousins and, well, my husband had dislocated his shoulder and my sister came up to help me with my daughter and she came in and that's about a three hour drive for her, and so she drove up here and with her boyfriend at the time his name was Jeff and as soon as they got here she had been having some like stomach issues. And so she was like you know, I'm having some stomach issues, I want to go back home. And I was like, oh well, you just got here, it's been three hours, what's what's going on? And she's like, no, I'm just having trouble. And I figured she was just maybe arguing with her boyfriend or something like that, and didn't want to tell me. And so they left, and it was about two days later that I realized they had taken my husband's prescription for his dislocated shoulder, the pain medication. The pain medication, wow. 

And I couldn't be certain of it. That was the thing is, I just couldn't be certain that she had taken it. Maybe I hadn't, you know, maybe I had lost, I don't know. I tried everything in my head. 

It was maybe my first indicator that something had happened, and so then nothing happened for another year, and then I had gotten a video from her she had sent me and I could just tell that she had been strung out, and so when she recorded it and it was probably like the middle of the afternoon, and so I realized that we had really had a. There was a big problem, and so I had been routinely asking my parents if they were giving her any money, because I just couldn't understand how you could feed an addiction like that. If it really was what I thought it was, where's this money coming from? I just couldn't understand it, and the answer was always consistently no. I just couldn't understand it, and the answer was always consistently no, until one day I heard my mom consistently say no. They weren't giving her any money, and she said except for the check that your father gives her every month. 

0:22:30 - Maya

Oh, what a bomb drop. You're like wait a second, Wait a second. 

0:22:40 - Sarah

And I was like, what about that? And he's like, well, you know, since she's unemployed, we just wanted to have like basic necessities, and so, um, and I think that's when I really started to put it together that this um, she was able to feed quite an elaborate addiction. Um, and and that's not to say that I judge it at all I understand that. You know, all my sister was looking for was a way out of pain, and isn't that something that? We're all looking for. Yeah, very powerful statement there, sarah, yeah. 

0:23:06 - Maya

I've got a lot of power in this story because that is something that I think you know those of us who don't struggle with addiction or have never seen it. My brother struggled with addiction as well. That's not how he died. Obviously we know it was homicide, but that was something I lived in fear of all the time. 

And same things I connect with and a lot of you guys will connect with this too, like if you had a sibling or have a sibling in addiction or know anyone right, there's all these things that don't add up to your point. It's like where are they getting the money? And like where are they disappearing to and why can't they keep a job? And it's like there's typical patterns. They don't always look that way but, yeah, more often than not there are a lot of these same patterns that happen and it's it makes you question things for sure. And it's interesting because my parents, you know, were supporting my brother at times too and weren't as transparent about it. So I really like that you are sharing, like I think if we all had just been a little more honest and real and transparent about where she is and what's going on. You know, I think that's interesting that you said that, because I connect with that too. 

0:24:11 - Sarah

Yeah, yeah, and I might've stolen a little of that from Dr Gabbar Mate, who I know you're a fan of, but, um so, but. So, yeah, I think that, exactly like you said, I think that it had we all had a more cohesive understanding of where she was at in her life and what was happening, I think we could have put it together a little bit better, a little bit earlier. And so in July of 2019, I'm sorry, in June of 2019, I was very pregnant with my son, and at this point I had put together enough information from my cousins and my parents that I knew that something was up, and so I told my parents, probably a couple months prior to that, that I really thought that there was a problem and was there anything missing in the house? And they said that there was a problem. And had she, you know, was there anything missing in the house? And they said that nothing was missing. And so I thought, okay, well, at least it hasn't gotten that bad. 

And so we started reaching out to a therapist in the Palm Springs area and I can't remember who we used, but I don't think we would have gone, that there was nothing wrong. The therapist was wonderful, but I just don't think we would have gone that path. There was nothing wrong, the therapist was wonderful, but I just don't think we would have gone that path had we known how everything would end. I think that the sort of spring it on them intervention is dangerous, and I think that it brings a lot of shame to an already precarious situation, and so I don't know if I would recommend that to anyone. I don't, I wouldn't actually, but that is what we did at the time, that's what was recommended to us, and so- Did you? 

0:25:49 - Maya

guys like bring her into therapy, like how did you do the intervention? 

0:25:52 - Sarah

I've always been so curious about this. Yeah, I know, I was like absolutely shaking. We went to my parents' house and, uh, they recommend that they parked somewhere else. It was a younger male therapist, a PhD, and um, and then an older woman, um, and they had a plan where they were going to um have her drive up and um pull in at my parents' house and come in, and then they would be there and we would talk to her about what was happening. 

And the only goal I remember at the time was um to just get her in the car to go to to there, to go to the recovery center which is in Las Vegas. That's where she was going to go, and as soon as she walked in the door she knew the second that she saw, these two people that she didn't know. She knew what we were up to and immediately closed down, didn't really want to answer any questions, just said that I'll go, I'll go to, and I think my my problem with that approach was that we didn't get to. She just went straight to therapy. We didn't get to talk about any of the problems that we were having, how we had come across this. 

0:27:17 - Maya

There was still so much ambiguity. Right, yeah, yeah. 

0:27:20 - Sarah

Yeah, and I think you know I was kind of checking out at that time. I was ready to have a baby. I just kind of wanted to focus on that and so I didn't really take the hands-on approach that I typically take in a lot of situations, especially with my sister, but so she comes in right before she came in. Actually, I thought this was really interesting. The therapist wanted us. He said, on one side of the room, if you think addiction is a choice, stand over there. And on the other side of the room, if you think addiction is a disease, stand on that side. And my mom stood about halfway in the room, my husband went over to the side of disease. I was probably somewhere between my mom and my husband on that side and my dad stood strictly on the side of a choice. 

And I think that that's very representative of how we all kind of feel about it, and I'm not sure that that's how we feel now, but that was how it was at the time. And so, and again, I think that that comes from just the shame. I think that parents they feel a real shame and a real responsibility if their child has an addiction, that parents they feel a real shame and a real responsibility if their child has an addiction, and so I think that that is the fear that makes them feel that way. You know? 

0:28:47 - Maya

Yeah, and so she came in and again knew exactly what was going on, was not fooled at all. Well, I mean, to be fair, by 2019, we've seen the show Intervention and all these different shows like that. So I'm sure when she saw that she was like, oh okay. 

0:29:03 - Sarah

Yeah, yeah, yeah, she was not very stoked about it, yeah, and so the plan was to. She had driven her car there, and so the plan was to drive up to her house and let her grab a few things, and then the therapist would drive her to Las Vegas. And so I can't remember if it was in the weeks before, um, the the intervention or what it was, but my parents were adamant, like I said, that nothing was missing from the house, but they, they would talk, talk about these two strange stories. One of them was this bag of bungee, um, bungee cords that went missing from my dad's garage. He would talk about that and I was just like, oh my goodness, I don't know, it's probably just some thing that you lost, dad. 

And then my mom would talk about many, many years ago she had like one of those plastic jars that says casino money on it, and she would put money in it, and she just couldn't find it. But my dad was really convinced that she had lost it or emptied it at some point. And so those were the only two stories they would tell. But nothing else had gone missing and they were really adamant about that. So when my sister finally agreed to go to the recovery center. We went up to her house and she left and she went with the therapist and everything was fine and right. When I was coming down to back to my parents' house, I had to drive my sister's car there and so right before I got into the car I checked the garage I'm sorry, not the garage the trunk of the car and in it was a bag of bungee cords and an empty plastic container that said Vegas money on it or casino money on it. 

In your sister's car so the two things that they had identified as missing were actually there and I think in that moment I was mainly filled with anger that all the things that we had suspected over the years were true, and that anger stuck with me for a while Really almost, maybe about six months that anger stuck with me and then my sister and I were able to really repair that relationship at the end of 2019. And at the beginning of the pandemic she was on TikTok with me. We were sending each other TikToks and talking about dances we were going to learn, and she went through one month of recovery at the Las Vegas Recovery Center and came out and she was great. 

0:31:35 - Maya

She looked like she was sober at first, level-headed, and then I think we fell back into another loop of not having the details of what was going on in her life when the pandemic started, and so so, Sarah, just to back you up for a second yeah, when she got out of her 30 days in Vegas, you said she looked sober and I hear this a lot right From people that have had a sibling or anyone in addiction that goes through that process. And what happened right afterwards? Did she move back in with family or like I'm always curious about that part because I feel like that's an integral part of the story too Like what were her next moves? Did she go back to work? Did she take some time off? Like kind of tell us what happened there and then the pandemic hit. So like a lot of things happened, obviously. 

0:32:24 - Sarah

Yeah, yeah. And so I think that most therapists would recommend that you go into recovery house. But my parents kind of were tired of paying for this. She completed the program but kind of rushed parts of it and didn't do other parts of it, didn't complete everything, and so she was ready to just come back and live in the house that she had been living in. But my parents didn't think that that was a good idea and so she came back in and moved in with my parents, which I think most therapists would tell you that's really a triggering and poor situation to go into. I think there's like studies on that actually after the wars, that soldiers moving in back in with their family having PTSD. 

0:33:14 - Maya

Interesting, I didn't know that. Okay, yeah. 

0:33:17 - Sarah

Being triggered to use the addictive substances that they were using away at war. And so, um, she, I didn't know anything, and nobody knew anything about what was going on. But afterward, we, um, we actually found that she had been drinking pool system. She had been bringing basically, handles of alcohol into the, um the house and then storing them, um, in her closet. And so, um, nobody, I didn't even know the drinking had gotten that bad. Uh, and so I can, um, do you want me to move forward to the week that she died? Yeah, absolutely. 

0:33:58 - Maya

Absolutely. I know I'm trying to be died, yeah, absolutely. It's kind of a long Absolutely. 

0:34:01 - Sarah

I know I'm trying to be cognitive. No, absolutely. 

0:34:03 - Maya

Yeah, I just was curious about that part of her coming home and then going into the pandemic. So, yeah, let's move to that. Sarah, so she's drinking, unfortunately after going through this program. 

0:34:16 - Sarah

Yeah, and at this point she had gotten in a couple arguments with my parents and she had actually moved out and had was moved. She she had put my parents under the impression that that she was moving in with her boyfriend. Now she was actually. She had gotten a job as a dental assistant in town and she was actually paying him rent and so. But my parents didn't know that and she had some legal fines that she needed to pay and my parents were paying us for her, and so I think there was more than a couple arguments about you know, what she was doing with her money and things like that. 

0:35:03 - Maya

Financial stuff again. Yeah, yeah, yeah, the same patterns we see, yeah Right. 

0:35:08 - Sarah

Exactly, and so before she went into therapy, before she went to the recovery center, she had been dating a, a man named Jeff, and when she went to recovery they had broken up, because that was kind of part of it. He was in active addiction as well, and the week that she died was actually a really eventful week. 

0:35:32 - Maya

So that Sunday, jeff, who never went to recovery and when was this, sarah? We're in 2020. Now, right, this is 2020. 

0:35:39 - Sarah

This is the last week of July 2020. Got it, and my son had just turned one year old and my daughter had just turned five. And actually, just like five days before that, my daughter turned five. And so that day, sunday, jeff who she had not been with for over a year, but she had been with for several years, maybe, gosh, I want to say like even five years she had been with Jeff and he again never went to recovery or anything like that, and he drove his car into oncoming traffic, which is there's a grade near our house in Morongo Valley, and so he it's kind of a famous, locally famous, known area and so he had driven into oncoming traffic and died on Sunday. 

Oh, my gosh, wow, and that had an effect. My sister and I talked about it. I have multiple messages between us talking about Jeff, sending pictures back and forth, because he had been to a lot of our family reunions over the years. We were really close with him and, um, you know, I I had said to her I'm just so glad that you weren't in the car, and she said I am too car. And she said I am too. 

0:36:57 - Maya

That was my instant thought when you were telling me that I'm like yeah, I'm so glad that you were in the car. 

0:37:07 - Sarah

And she said, I am too. And so my sister had a DUI at the time, and so she had a job, but she couldn't get herself to and from that job. And so on Monday, my mom was on her way to go pick her up in the afternoon. They were up camping close by. My mom fell backwards out of the camper and had broken her arm. She didn't know it at the time, so that was Monday. They drove back home. 

My dad picked my sister up from work and drove her home. That was Monday afternoon, and so, um, when I spoke to her, she said that they had gotten a little bit of an argument because he had found out that my sister was paying rent to her um, to her boyfriend's last friend, and um, so the next morning, tuesday morning, I, um, she was able to get to work by herself I know maybe my dad did take her to work that day and they argued again. And so, um, I offered to have an Uber pick her up Tuesday night instead of my dad, just because my mom still wasn't driving. And, um, mitigate the situation, a little bit. 

0:38:16 - Maya

Let it fall down as much as I can. 

0:38:20 - Sarah

And she said, no, it was no big deal. And so she called me Tuesday night and I didn't answer at first. And then she called me back like a minute later and I answered and I was putting my son to bed and she was really distraught. She was upset that she had gotten in another fight with my dad about finances and she was afraid that my dad would never see her as anything more than her addiction and that she would never be trusted again. 

And we had this really great conversation about how you know, all you can do is keep trying, and at the end of the day, that's what calms you. What soothes you as well is that you've just shown the best that you can of yourself, and people can just take it or leave it, and that's what life is about. And I think we were both much calmer at the end of that conversation. It felt like one of those large conversations that you have with someone. Yes, it just had this really settling feeling and she said she was going to go eat some Chinese food and go to bed, and so we hung up and a few minutes later she texted me and said that she had just gotten off the phone with my dad and that he had apologized and that she could tell he really meant it. And that was the last message I got from her. 

0:39:51 - Maya

That's going to make me cry. Oh my God, wow. 

0:39:54 - Sarah

It was really powerful and I realized it afterward. So the next morning I work remotely, and so I was in a meeting and it was strange, my childhood best friend's dad was calling me, which was so strange because I just would never talk to him, and so I tried to call him back. He wouldn't answer. It was strange. I called my dad, he wouldn't answer. I called my sister she didn't answer. And so I messaged her and I just like in all caps what is happening? And I never got a response back. 

And so what was happening was that my dad went to go pick my sister up for work in the morning, and when he showed up there she didn't come out, and so he assumed maybe she had gotten a different ride from someone, or something like that. So he went to her work Now, we live in a really small town and so, while he was right, he went to her work, and when he found that she wasn't there, he was racing back to her house, because he was a police officer for a number of years and he could just tell something was wrong. And so he was seen by my childhood best friend's dad speeding through town and so Got it. Oh, that gave me chills, oh wow. And they're close friends and so they would recognize each other's cars in town and he knew that something was wrong. So he drove to my sister's boyfriend's house and he could hear dogs barking inside, but he couldn't get in. 

And so he, um, went to the back of the house and broke in through the window uh, through a rock through the window to try to get in. And he was clearing out the window and when he reached in, a piece of glass fell on his hand and it was like a big one, he said, and it was like mid rest. And so he, he yanked it out and he said that his, his wrist just fountained and he passed out. And so, um, the rest of the story is told by my best friends, my childhood best friend's dad. He, uh, found he, he had followed my dad. He didn't know exactly where my sister lived, but he followed my dad and saw his truck out front of their house and he went around back to see where he was and he found my dad knocked out on the side of the house with blood around him and the dog's barking. 

0:42:07 - Maya

Thank God for him Right. Oh, my God. 

0:42:10 - Sarah

And he called 911 and the sheriff came and the sheriff was a is a fam known to our family, and so the sheriff was able to get some meat from our neighbor, which is another friend of my sister's, and get the dogs out, and they were able to see that my had passed away in the evening. Uh, she was still in bed and they said that she had had some Chinese food with her and it looked peaceful and, um, that had happened, probably sometime in the middle of the night. 

0:42:55 - Maya

And um. 

0:42:55 - Sarah

She was alone. 

0:42:56 - Maya

The friend slash boyfriend was not there. He wasn't there. 

0:43:00 - Sarah

Hmm, yeah, and I think, yeah, I think he had left earlier and was sleeping in a different bedroom than her and didn't come in to check on her. And so, when the ambulance got there, they took my dad, but he didn't have his phone and this is COVID, so nobody could go with him. And there's only two beds in the High Desert Medical Center in Joshua Tree two emergency beds and so they pulled him into one and he said that he just kept thinking they're going to pull up with her at any moment. And he said, after about four hours he realized that wasn't gonna happen. And um, that was my dad's experience. 

My experience was, um my childhood best friend's dad called me. He told me that I needed to call him back. When I called him back, he let me know that my sister had been found dead and that my dad was unconscious and on the way to the hospital. I um he then gave the phone to the sheriff who asked me who knew that my mom was home alone and couldn't drive, and um asked me not to tell her until he could get there and that he needed some time to secure the scene and then he would head over to our house and um, during that entire time my mom had been calling me back, and calling me back, and calling, and calling, and probably about 10 minutes later the phone call stopped and that's when I realized that the sheriff had probably gotten to her. 

And yeah, it was the height of COVID. So it was just um very difficult to get any information back. She we had no idea what had happened. There were lots of rumors on her Facebook and around town that um she had committed suicide and we had no way to um combat those claims, which was difficult slicing for that period, and because of being the height of COVID, they weren't able to do an autopsy for over a month. 

Oh my gosh. Yeah, they weren't able to complete one, and we didn't get the results for six months. And so what were? 

0:45:34 - Maya

you feeling at the time, sarah? Did you just you knew you were like should not die by suicide? Yeah, an overdose Like that was your gut, like tell us, is that what you're feeling, or? 

0:45:44 - Sarah

Yeah, I absolutely did, and it's because of that conversation that we had had before about her being thankful that she wasn't in the car. 

0:45:50 - Maya

So important in your story. Yeah, yeah. 

0:45:54 - Sarah

But I did have that moment where I realized that suicide and addiction not to put the two in the same room, but they're very similar in a lot of ways. 

0:46:06 - Maya

They are. No, they totally are. Yeah, suicide and overdose. 

0:46:09 - Sarah

They're so similar in a lot of ways, ways they are. No, they totally are. Yeah, suicide and overdose, they're so similar in a lot of ways. You know they call it accidental overdose is what they call it. Accidental fentanyl overdose is her official cause of death. But you know, in a way it's sort of like an accidental suicide Because you know, I think that it's a long time addiction. Especially in the setting of long time addiction, I think that there's room to discuss how those two scenarios are similar to one another. 

0:46:45 - Maya

I agree, I completely agree with you, and I think everyone listening to this that's experienced one or the other, or perhaps both, God forbid can agree with that too, Because I hear that in these stories and you know, and often one is mistaken for the other, right, or you know one way or the other, so you know that's a part of your story too. 

0:47:03 - Sarah

But six months, yeah, it was so long and we actually held her funeral a month after she died, and that's also the weekend that we got her body back. And we know the people who are in the mortuary in town and they were very adamant that we shouldn't see her. They were very adamant that we shouldn't see her, and so my parents were ready to take that recommendation, and there was some things in your story that I actually thought were really similar. You know that people come in and they try to have an effect on your relationship with your sibling, even after they pass, and I felt, like you know, I had to fight really hard to be able to see my sister one last time before they cremated her, and it was really important to me that, um, that we did that or that I did that, and it was just me that saw her. My parents didn't want to come, and that's fine. 

0:48:02 - Maya

That's exactly, um, probably the way that my sister would have wanted it as well, just me being there and is important, though, because you knew what you needed, and that's the advice that I always give people. I'm like I'm not a therapist, I'm not licensed in this, I'm just someone who had an experience. I'm someone that talks to a lot of you guys every single day, and you have to do what's right for you, and some people are like should I do this? Should I? I'm like what does your gut tell you? Is this important for you? Are you going to regret this? And it sounds like you made the right choice for you, sarah. 

0:48:31 - Sarah

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I don't regret it at all. I'm so happy I got to see her one last time. I think that in the moments where I have something that I call illogical thoughts that I wanted to tell you about. 

That, I think, is something that happens to a lot of people when they go through like a really traumatic situation like that or they're grieving the loss of someone that was really important in their life, are what I call illogical thoughts. One of them was my dad's birthday was that Saturday of that week, and I remember my mom coming out of the kitchen with the birthday cake and I physically tried to push her back into the kitchen because I just time couldn't go forward. You know, my sister wasn't there, we couldn't move forward and um, and it was like it signified the next day, the next event, and she wasn't there, and I just remember like physically trying to like push um, my mom back into the kitchen, trying to like push my mom back into the kitchen. Another one that I related to in your story was you talked about how your mom had brought her boyfriend to the hospital and you were kind of like you know why. 

0:49:44 - Maya

Why did? 

0:49:44 - Sarah

that happen. I did something like that that I wanted to share. So the day that she died I had to drive the three hours through LA to get back, but it was the middle of a Wednesday and so it took me more like five or six hours to get through all that, and I just couldn't listen to music. I had to talk to someone, but of course, not everybody could speak to me. I think I probably called everyone. 

I knew People that I hadn't spoken to in 10, 15 years, and I think the reason I did that was because I was looking for her and I was looking for all the little pieces of her that everyone knew about her, and I was piecing back together everything that I could get of her. And so I wonder if in some way not to try to analyze anything, but I wonder if in some way your mom brought the person who she knew could relate most to your brother you know or knew, could comfort her in the moments that she was relating to your brother. I think that that was my intention behind calling all these people who I hadn't spoken to in 20 years, and they had no idea why I was calling them. 

0:51:00 - Maya

Yeah, yeah, I think I love everything that you're bringing up too, and I love that you're trying to push your mom back into the kitchen. I love that. 

No, like it's illogical thoughts and it's just, it's grief thoughts. Really. I love that you're trying to push your mom back into the kitchen. I love that. No, like, yeah, illogical thoughts and it's just, it's grief thoughts. Really. I love this concept that you're talking about because it's, and I love that you're normalizing it. But, yeah, I think I definitely understand. You know, I got a lot of calls from people too when it started to break, because you know it was a little public and stuff going on with my brother, right, and it was people I hadn't talked to in a while as well, and I did find that comforting. I can connect with that. But as far as my mom, I've done a lot of evolving over, even you know, the two years since I've started this podcast, and I think that there's a lot of truth in what you're saying. I think you know her boyfriend didn't know my brother, but she is not somebody who has ever been super independent. I mean, she's just not Right. 

And so you know, I think for me, ultimately I was not necessarily angry that he came to the hospital. I was angry because they weren't even really together, right. So that was the confusion, right yeah, but I agree with you. I think it was something that was comfortable for her. It was like a security blanket for her. 

And I think that yeah, any logical thought and looking back. Will she have that realization one day? I don't know, but I understand it now. So, yeah, thanks for bringing that up, because that is something that I've evolved with and thought about too, and I have a lot of empathy and understanding now, but at the time I was just like what the hell? Yeah, yeah. 

0:52:32 - Sarah

And I relate to what you were saying, I think in the season four opener about having more empathy for people, because I think that people do turn away from your grief so strongly and I think that in the beginning I would be really hurt by that. In the first few years I think I was hurt by when I would call and people would be like, wow, still, and I work in cancer care, so people are like, wow, I just thought that your job would prepare you better for this. 

0:53:01 - Maya

Nothing prepares you for this. You're a great example of this. 

0:53:05 - Sarah

Yeah, I remember being so, so offended by, by people telling me that I should have been stronger, um, and now I think um, because they just couldn't hear the screaming in my head for the last three years. And um, and I think that I have so much more empathy for them now because the truth is they've never experienced it, like you've said, and one day they will, and I hope that, um, you know, like we were talking about that. I hope that just being able to share these stories and to tell people how shocking it can be and just show what grief looks like on perfectly strong, healthy people Yep, I think can maybe help lessen the blow or help them through the darker times of their grief. 

0:53:55 - Maya

Yeah, yeah, I agree, I completely agree. It is interesting because people used to look at me like I had three heads when I first started talking about my empathy levels just increasing and they were like what? And I'm like, no, that didn't happen day one. No, no no, no, I was really pissed off for a long time. Yeah, for quite a while. 

0:54:13 - Sarah

Yeah, and it comes back again every now and then. 

you know there's something that someone says or does, and it sets off a whole new wave of it where you go through all the different and that that was another thing I wanted to say that you know there's there's memory. 

I've noticed in the last few years that there's memories that I haven't thought about since she died and when you, it's almost like that memory is a pristine little golden bubble somewhere, and then now that I I revisit it after she's died, it touches it with a new light and it does something to it, and not just in a sad way. It also makes it more meaningful in some ways, because you know, like we were seeing so much of your, your, your life is, is held by your sibling and so much of your memory is is through their understanding of it as well, is through their understanding of it as well. And so in those moments that you weren't at the time, you didn't really think, were anything. They were just little memories and they weren't perfect, they were all messy. You realize when you look back at them that they were exactly perfect, they were exactly what you needed and they stay with you and they stay with you, you know, and they change with you. Yeah. 

0:55:34 - Maya

That is really like Sarah, that really touched me. That's like this has been amazing talking to you, but like I, that's a like moment, like I'm totally going to take that and talk about that. So hang out with me on TikTok sometime, because I am going to use that. 

I love that because I think sometimes people get really caught up in looking back at memories or looking back at like the little things right, and you know you're right as time goes on. Time does not heal all wounds, but as time goes on, you're growing, you're moving and you do look back with a different light or through a different lens and like, yeah, it's special, and like you it's special, and like it gives depth to it. Yes, you just articulated that so beautifully. Tell us a little bit about I mean, this is a great episode. Tell us a little bit about you know, you guys finally got the the autopsy results back. So did they show fentanyl in her system? Like, how did this come, come to light? 

0:56:31 - Sarah

Yeah, yeah, and so, um, yeah, so in the days after she died I had her cell phone and, um, I was able, you know, to just go through everything cause it was unlocked. And so I saw that she had been um friends, longtime friends, with someone on Facebook that she was messaging on the messenger there, um and the it was actually him who reached out on her phone was the first time that I went to go looking for things. He had reached out asking, I think it just said like Friday 10 o'clock I'm pretty sure that this was like the day after, maybe Thursday, a message just appeared as a Friday 10 o'clock and I didn't say anything. And then another one appeared underneath that that said Norco's 10. And um, and so I, I just, you know, I had a feeling when I saw the state of her room, when I, when I first saw her out um the room after she died, uh, I had this feeling that she wasn't sober, but I tried to hold judgment off of that. And so I saw the message from this guy that she had known for many years, and I had gone through the messages and I want to say that this was someone very well known to her. She had gotten pill treatment many times, probably over the course of years, gotten pills from him many times, probably over the course of years. 

And the day that I showed up at home, there was a newspaper and it said that two local girls had died from fentanyl overdose that week. And so in the end, it was actually six people that died from that batch of pills from that dealer in town that week, and it was every pill, it was every one of the pills that he sold up there, and so the sheriff my dad has worked with the sheriff a little bit. I don't know if there's anything that's come from that, but they were going to prosecute the guy and but, yeah, we didn't know that all in the time. Um, I think that COVID really, uh, kept us from having to answer these questions in the beginning. Uh, we didn't have to see as many people and so we weren't having to like force that the answer. But, um, yeah, the autopsy came back as an acute fentanyl overdose and, um, but there was no way to see. You know how long she had been? 

0:58:52 - Maya

uh, before that, or if it was just that you know one pill and she was using something else you don't know, like that's very often the case. 

0:59:00 - Sarah

Yeah, yeah she was starting a new job on monday and, um, that coming monday, and so, um, it is my understanding that she had passed a drug test recently and so, but I don't really know. 

0:59:11 - Maya

Yeah, there's always those, you know, in my story, your story and anybody's story who deals with someone, a loved one, who is in addiction. There's always things that we're just never going to know and that you have to come to a place of acceptance. Like that's when I do believe in acceptance. It's like when can you come to a place where you're like you know what? I don't, I don't need the answer to that one. That's not relevant, it really doesn't matter, Right? Yeah, so you know, and I think those in the beginning, you just want to know everything you want to know all the details. 

0:59:38 - Sarah

I got to know it all Like what's you know? 

0:59:39 - Maya

you become like an FBI squad or something. Yeah Right. 

0:59:43 - Sarah

And I I wanted to say that cause people, um, you know, I I want to say I was given some really good advice by a very close friend, one of the people that I called in the first 24 hours, and she told me just write down everything, document everything. Love that. And I honestly thought what am I doing this for, taking photos of everything and writing details. But now, all these years later, I'm much more detailed than I am now. I have much more of the details written away than I do have in my head and I'm really appreciative of that advice. I would say when something traumatic happens, it tends to be a blight on your memories in that time and having something that you write down if you journal, or just keeping a note where you just put all your thoughts in your phone, has been really helpful to me. 

1:00:33 - Maya

Great advice I would give the same advice too, and I love your friend that told you that because that's you know, I've gone back to my journal and in season one when I told my story, I read my brother's eulogy, like vulnerably on the show, and it's interesting because I read through prior to writing the eulogy, because I just kept it in my ongoing journal and it's interesting the stuff that I had in there and I used a lot of that to tell my story on season one, because you go through this grief fog that you know that we talk about. So, yeah, I love that you, you did that and I'm, yeah, I mean like great advice for anyone out there that's unfortunately having to go through something like this. But so you guys, this is obviously and I have an opinion about this too about these dealers with fentanyl Like I mean I think it's, I think it's really complicated because it's accidental overdose, it's homicide. 

I mean it is, it's homicide you know, and so that's what's so difficult about this epidemic, you know, and so that's what's so difficult about this epidemic, you know, and then you start to go down the the line of questioning, where you're like who, what dealers know what they're doing? What dealers don't do we really even care, because they're dealing drugs anyway. You know. It's like you go through. Did you kind of go through that, sarah? 

1:01:43 - Sarah

yeah, kind of like yeah, I think that's normal, yeah, and I mean, I think that you know, it's pretty common for you to be like kind of friends with your dealer and I'm pretty sure that, yeah, she was very friendly with this guy and you know, I don't think I mean I don't have any reason to believe that he knew what he was doing. I think that he just, you know, I think that sometimes, not knowing what you're doing, you're just as guilty, not? 

1:02:08 - Maya

knowing what you're doing. 

1:02:09 - Sarah

you're just as guilty and um, and I think that I definitely don't think that he meant to kill six people that week in a small town. 

1:02:18 - Maya

Um and but, uh, but he did he didn't that's the hard part, but he did. Yeah, tell us a little bit about you, shared a little bit about this uh prior to us hitting record and you know your intake and stuff um about. You were so knowledgeable about fentanyl stats yeah, I wish I. 

1:02:37 - Sarah

Yeah, I wish I had those stats with me. Actually I have them, I'll pull them out I come prepared, sarah? 

1:02:44 - Maya

yes, I do, because I want you guys to just share your story. I do, I haven't here actually. 

1:02:49 - Sarah

Um, so I was saying that for americans aged 18 to 45 years, the leading cause of death is a fentanyl overdose. Um, fentanyl is responsible for nearly 70 of the united states7,000 plus drug overdoses in the past year. 

1:03:07 - Maya

So that was in the past year, 107,000. Yeah, that's crazy. That is crazy. 

1:03:12 - Sarah

I don't know if you've ever seen any of those stats where they show you what the cause of mortality has been over the years. Fentanyl is off the charts, and it is-. 

1:03:21 - Maya

That's why this episode is so important. Yeah, yeah. 

1:03:23 - Sarah

And it's not just drug overdose, it's specifically fentanyl. It's just much more deadly than the other drugs and the other epidemics that we've had with drugs in this country. And I wanted to say, like I said in my intake, that and I've said this to a lot of people you know this is not happening under the freeway overpass. This is happening in people's bedrooms. These are people who live productive lives, they have families, they are loved by people, they are checked on regularly and I think that we all sort of live in fear of this if you have someone that is in active addiction, and my advice to anyone who has a loved one and active addiction is to fight like hell, just fight like hell. 

1:04:10 - Maya

Yeah, I just think that's great advice. Like that was a hard thing for me, with my brother for sure, and my story with my parents is a little different, as you guys know and can listen to if you haven't. But you know, I felt like they were enablers. Well then, you know, I'm in a great place with my dad because he's been very open about it, admits his faults, like I think that's really huge, my mom, you know, maybe we'll cross that bridge one day, maybe we won't. I'm, I'm fine either way. Right, their way right. It is what it is. You know life has moved in the direction that it's moved. But you know, I love your advice about fighting like hell because and if you get tired, just rest don't quit. 

1:04:54 - Sarah

That's another thing I'd like to add to that. Yeah, because it's a journey with these people, right, and coming on the other side of it. You know, there were times when I was tired and I didn't want to deal with it anymore. 

1:05:03 - Maya

Of course you're a mom, you have two babies, You're married to work like yeah, tired yeah. 

1:05:08 - Sarah

Yeah, but eventually you won't have to fight anymore one way or another, you know. 

And so, and being able to be there for that person in their times of active addiction, they'll remember forever. 

And my sister and I always kept that good relationship, you know, even though I knew that about her and she was able to talk to me about it and I feel like I was one of the few people that really was able to just not judge her and not make her need to carry the shame. Because, you know, a lot of times I feel like with addiction it's that second arrow. You know you have to feel bad about feeling this way, you know, and doing this thing, and when they're already not feeling well, you know. And so I think that not adding that additional shame will keep the secrets you know more open. And then keeping that communication open is really the only way to get a full picture of someone's health, overall health and their life. And yeah, and maybe just having that opening and being open to it is what I mean to say. Being open to those conversations can bring someone back, you know, from the edge can bring someone back you know from the edge. 

1:06:24 - Maya

Yeah, I agree, I think when you come from a place of judgment, you're right, it's like a double whammy for them, right, it's? Like they're already battling inside, they're already going through all of that. They know, you know they know. 

Yeah, so you know, coming from again. You know, like we talked about coming from a place of empathy, openness, but also you know it's OK, you know. And then some people will come to me sometimes too, and they haven't lost their sibling yet, sarah. They're going through this. This episode is great for them to listen to as well, and they're like I had to cut off communication. That's what I like to call rest time. That's. 

1:06:57 - Sarah

OK, rest time. Sometimes you need to know where they are, what they're doing. 

1:07:00 - Maya

Keep your tabs, keep your FBI agent hat on, because you know that I could see you regretting and that is a regret that I lived with because I had to put boundaries up at the end. And you know, as I shared on my story, the night before my brother was shot I looked at my then boyfriend and was like I need to call my brother and then, the next day. 

I mean, it's like these, like you're very, you know, you're amazing conversation. Then your dad had the conversation with Jenny and then these things happen and it's like right, there's a deeper spiritual thing going on there. 

1:07:32 - Sarah

I don't care what you believe in. 

1:07:34 - Maya

It's deeper. And your story has that all throughout as well, and I just want to say too I want to talk about two more things real, real quick and then we'll wrap up. But this has been amazing, but what a hell of a week for your family, oh my God Like just a little like levity for a second. Like wow, like oh my. God Birthday. Mom gets hurt you know, boyfriend on and off five years dies. Dad gets hurt. We find Jenny has, you know, had, oh my God, you know, been killed by fentanyl, Like whoa, what Like? 

1:08:06 - Sarah

what a week. She got a broken arm. But at that point, at this point on Thursday, we're like, well, it can't be broken. You've been, you've been doing things for the last four days, it's probably not broken. So we go in and she actually broke it in two places. Oh my god. Uh, she had a very broken arm oh my god, yeah, she's in. 

1:08:36 - Maya

She's in so much trauma too, you know, dealing with all the, the two losses, and then you know you're I mean mostly your sister and then you know you're I mean mostly your sister, of course but then you know your dad getting injured, like oh my God, that's so much Like you're not really the physical pain. Like what's that? 

1:08:49 - Sarah

Yeah exactly Right yeah. 

1:08:51 - Maya

Oh my gosh. Well, one other thing I wanted to ask you about is you kind of mentioned this before about your therapy, your different? 

things that you tried different things, that you tried and you just you're in such a great place, Sarah, and I think you know that's why I always love people to come on when they're a couple of years into their journey, where they've kind of come on the other side and you said this perfectly earlier too doesn't mean that you don't get angry sometimes or sad sometimes or feel it, but you've been able to move with it, and I think it's a testament to therapy and some of the things that you've done. So do you want to share a little bit about that with? 

1:09:25 - Sarah

us as well. Sure, yeah, yeah. Like I mentioned, I went to EMDR therapy and I was going to say it's a lot like working out. It's just so tiring and it really does the work and gets you back into a place where you can be a little bit more present. 

1:09:40 - Maya

A lot of people ask about this. Can you just tell us what it is again? Every time people look at this, they're always like what is it? So I know it, but I just wanted you to explain it. 

1:09:48 - Sarah

Yeah, right, yeah, it's eye movement, desensitization and reprogramming. And so what it looks like on the side of the patient is recalling troubling thoughts or troubling memories, and if you're able to do that, for some people you're not able to remember the trauma, but you can give maybe the thoughts and feelings that come around when you're feeling traumatized and then your therapist will put something either up on the screen or I'm not sure what it would be like in person, but it looked like pong on the screen and there's a dot that you follow back and forth and, depending on the frequency, it can do desensitizing. So if you have a particularly traumatic memory, the cadence of the ball going back and forth will be, I think, lower and it's supposed to help you bring those emotions down around that memory. And then the reprogramming is when you would think about positive memories and it seemed like the pong ball was moving a little bit faster for that one Interesting. 

1:10:58 - Maya

Yeah, and. 

1:10:59 - Sarah

I'm not a therapist, I have no idea, that's just my experience as a patient. But there's something about I was reading about why it works. This eye movement, this lateral eye movement, is a really calming effect for humans and allows us to focus, and so that probably has to do with like searching and hunting in the past and just having like awareness of your understanding and sort of settling yourself in the present moment, and so that's kind of what it did for me. But I would be like shaking after therapy I don't necessarily that was my follow-up question to you is like that's the other thing. 

1:11:36 - Maya

Some people have done it and love it, but I find that it's not like. Again, I'm not a therapist, but based on the therapist I've talked to and based on the people that have done it successfully and loved it, there's a time and a place, right. It's like you know don't, I don't think it's time, the day after you lose your sibling, to start this journey right, yeah, exactly. 

No, like I have known some people that just weren't ready for it and had some really extreme reactions to it, because it's intense, like you're saying it's very much intense, yeah, and it's not like talk therapy. 

1:12:08 - Sarah

I don't think someone could do it for years and years and years. Right, it's more of a dunking a dunking of reliving of the memories and the trauma, and I think that that can be really tough on you. I would call it almost like having a personal trainer you could work out, but then, if you used a personal trainer, you'd get through it a lot faster probably. And I think it's sort of like that, more of like it pushes you to maybe go through not necessarily the stages of grief, but go through the more volume of your life and process it at maybe a jarring rate. For some people it was a little jarring for me. 

1:12:52 - Maya

I think you're absolutely right. Yeah and like so you've got to be ready for it and, like we talked about earlier in the episode, you got to be ready to heal Like it's work, it's work but, so worth it on the other side, right Like you're a great example of that. 

1:13:04 - Sarah

Yeah. 

1:13:05 - Maya

Sarah, is there anything else that you wanted to touch on that I didn't ask you or just didn't come up organically that you want to share about your story or about Jenny or just this whole experience, and I again appreciate you just being so open about everything. 

1:13:19 - Sarah

Yeah, I wanted to say one thing that I wanted to relate with you on, as my sister was a partier, as you know, she loved to sing. Karaoke was like a huge part of what she did and she would sing this song who Knew few years? Her name was Lola and my sister. After we moved out together after college, my sister moved somewhere. They didn't allow dogs and so I took over Lola and I had Lola for 14 years and she died three years after my sister died. And my sister used to sing this song by Pink and the lyrics go if someone told me three years from now you'd be long gone, I'd stand up and punch them out because they're all wrong. And I remember, like three years after my sister died, Lola, her dog died, and I just remember thinking it was such a synchronous moment and you had talked about Scarlett, your dog, and how the animals just bring us together and I just thought that was really cute. 

1:14:34 - Maya

Oh my God, Thank you so much. I know you mentioned you're like my sister Scorpio. I loved how you talked about your sister Scorpio. She loved animals. She's a part of you. I loved your description and your intake. But, oh my God, thank you for sharing that story. Yeah, both of my dogs are really integral into my grief. You know, my brother was the first one to hold Scarlett and she's going to be 12. And you know I got my other, my other dog, bonnie. I got her on December 9th, so you know the 25th is when he died. So, yeah, you know, oh, wow, I had no intention of getting another dog and little did, and I've shared this with you guys before. But my brother had wanted chihuahuas. 

I had no idea and I had no intention of getting and I had this little chihuahua, and his girlfriend is the one that started calling me and blowing me up and was like showing, sending me these pictures of my brother with to allahs. 

So I have these pictures and I share them now on social media and people are like, oh, that's so cool. I'm like, no, I had never seen those prior to walking out of the adoption that day. And so these are signs. These are signs from our yeah, our loved ones that have passed, and I believe in that. So, yes, thank you for sharing the story of lola. 

1:15:41 - Sarah

Oh, oh my God, yeah, I had her for three years afterwards. She was so old it was. She was a wonderful dog, five pounds, just the sweetest thing that she reminded me of Jenny all the time. 

1:15:50 - Maya

Well, and then the pink song. 

1:15:51 - Sarah

Like that's wild, that is so wild yeah there's lots of things like that my sister was really into, like Bigfoot and aliens and things like that. She really believed in the afterlife and so, um, and I sort of didn't, and so it's been. You know, you talk about in the season four opener, about how, um, you continue to have a relationship with someone even after they pass and it's. It's funny how much more open I am to that now. Um, knowing that I have someone on the other side, you know it changes you, it really changes you yeah. 

Evolution, yeah, yeah, and there's been a medium that's been reaching out and I was listening to your episode and how you have really appreciated it, so I think that might give me the push to talk to them. 

1:16:30 - Maya

Yeah, yeah, I mean I think it's interesting. You know, a lot of people want to do the medium thing, like really early on in their grief journey, and I'm always like, look, I'm not a medium, I'm not a therapist, I'm not this, I'm not any of these things. But I think you get so much more out of it If you wait. You're more level headed, you're not just looking for any little. You know what I mean. You've got your guard up, you can pick the right person. So I think that's really important. So another piece of advice for you guys listening to this episode but because I get asked that a lot too about mediums, like what do you think? What do you think? I waited five years and I'm really glad I waited. I'm not saying you have to, but dear God, please don't do it the week of or something, because you're just so desperate You're so desperate and you want answers. 

So you'll kind of find truth in anything. So there's a lot of people out there that are full of it and there's a lot of people out there that have some truth. So, Sarah, tell us where we can connect with you, where you're comfortable connecting with people, and we'll put it in the show notes. 

1:17:24 - Sarah

Sure yeah, On my TikTok my username is crybaby with a K, it's K-R-Y-B-A-B-Y, and then on Instagram my username is broadminded and they're both public and I love to talk about my sister and I post videos about her whenever I'm thinking about her and that's also been kind of a therapy for me is just being creative and there's a painting behind me that I painted for her after she died. It's a nocturne Thank you for sharing that. 

1:17:53 - Maya

Yeah, that's beautiful. I wanted to get you a little bit closer. 

1:17:57 - Sarah

But yeah, and so I've just tried to be like, as creative as possible, and I think that that's been a big part of it. 

1:18:04 - Maya

You are very creative. Oh, thank you. That is an outlet. You know that for me, like this is my outlet right and I'm a talker and a listener and I'm a. 

You know that's my outlet and so that's kind of been a journey for me over the past year is learning people's different grief outlets. Grief outlets and that's something that you know we're including in our summit, that we're hosting as well different outlets, writing and art, and you know tapping and all these different types of ways, because everybody doesn't process grief one way and everybody doesn't have the same outlet and it changes as time goes on, you know. 

1:18:39 - Sarah

At first you're kind of angry and you want to work out really hard, and then you want to sit with it for a while, and so maybe meditation is a little bit better. I agree, I agree. 

1:18:47 - Maya

I couldn't do it. I mean, it took me five years to come to the mic. As I always say, it took me five years to come to the mic. I'm such a talker and this is what I do. I'm a podcaster, so it's interesting. You're right. And so, sarah, thank you again for being so open. So many different aspects of your story, I think, are going to connect with so many of you guys, and we'll tag you in the show notes so people can connect with you. 

1:19:09 - Sarah

Great, and thank you again for being here and sharing you and Jenny, yeah, and I wanted to thank you for creating the space for surviving siblings and allowing us to share our story and giving us the strength by sharing your story. I really appreciated that. Thank you, that's so sweet. 

1:19:27 - Maya

Thank you, sarah. Thank you guys, so much for listening to the Surviving Siblings podcast. We'll see you again next time.