Michelle Loses Pat To A Plane Crash

Michelle Loses Pat To A Plane Crash - Podcast
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[00:00:00] Welcome to the Surviving Siblings Podcast. I'm your host, Maya Roffler. As a surviving sibling myself, I knew that I wanted to share my story, my brother's story. I lost my brother to a homicide in November, 2016. And after going through this experience, I knew that I wanted to share my story and his story.

[00:00:31] And now it's your turn to share your stories.

[00:00:36] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: I am so excited to have another incredible guest here today with me. Her name is Michelle Tobin. Michelle, welcome to the show.

[00:00:45] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: Thank you. I'm so glad to be here.

[00:00:48] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: I am so excited to have you here. Michelle is an author, social worker, therapist, so many things. And Michelle lost her brother, Patrick, 50 [00:01:00] years ago. What a milestone. Yeah. Michelle, so 50 years ago in 2024, we're coming up on 51. Tell us a little bit about what life was like with you and Patrick and your other surviving siblings.

[00:01:18] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: Kind of paint a picture for us, Michelle, so we can understand your dynamics.

[00:01:22] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: So in 1974 I was a junior. High school. I oddly, I was at the, kind of the top of my game in a way. I was class president and I'd been, I was class president, sophomore year class president, junior, senior year. And it was the night before Thanksgiving. My brother Pat was in the Navy. So the last time I'd seen him was for his birthday, which is March.

[00:01:46] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: So I'd seen him in March for his 22nd birthday, but he's six years older than I am. Always seems like an older brother, no matter how often, no matter how many times I look at his picture, he still seems like the older brother. But he was a bit distant from [00:02:00] us. He was six years older than I am.

[00:02:01] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: I, you looked at him like he was cool, he was cool and cool was something back then. And we all wanted to be cool. Like my brother, Pat was so. We were waiting for him to come home, and the thing I remember the most is my sister Elise and I, we're very close in age, we're, it's the night before Thanksgiving, everybody goes out, and they still do that today.

[00:02:23] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: Everybody goes out, you're going out drinking, and we were laying on our beds, and both of us were in really bad moods. So, you had talked in your episodes about knowing, and we knew. And we didn't know what we knew, but we were feeling it, and so we both were like, I don't want to go out, but our friends are pressuring us.

[00:02:42] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: We've got to do it. And back then you hung out. So you hung out, the only place you hung out were like, at the school, on the grounds, going to restaurants, but usually involves some kind of alcohol at a park or behind a building or that kind of thing.

[00:02:59] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: People just [00:03:00] hung out and I was in a really bad mood all night. And I felt like. There was so much drama. So Pat was the oldest of 12. So we had a big family. We were well known Catholic school. The four, I'm number five, the four above me were pretty much troublemakers, they had Reputations, especially the boys.

[00:03:23] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: So it went two boys, eight girls, two boys. So the two older boys had reputations, and you got another Dane coming, and I was as bad as they were. They, I, even though I was class president I was really, my, my mom was the attendance office secretary and it was not below me to go right up to her and lie right to her face.

[00:03:44] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: So it was like, we were always kind of looking up to him, but, in fact, he was 22 kind of lost. That's why he joined the Navy.

[00:03:51] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: He didn't know what else he was going to do. He was one of those kind of, now he would have been diagnosed with ADHD, didn't really know what kind of what his direction [00:04:00] was in life, even though he was very smart. So we. For me, I was always just kind of looking up to him. That's all you know, it was just like that figure in your life So on that night I demanded to go home because there was a lot of drama and I was like just drop me.

[00:04:16] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: Somebody dropped me off. I didn't drive that night and my sister Elise, the same thing. So we almost, we were not out together, but we pretty much showed up back at home together.

[00:04:27] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: That's interesting.

[00:04:28] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: And yeah, and another sister opened the door and said, Pat's dead. Oh 

[00:04:36] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: you got home and

[00:04:38] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: were a lot of cars in the driveway. So we always had a lot of cars in the driveway because there were 12 kids.

[00:04:45] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: I kind of thought it was unusual at that time at night to. See all those cars, but still, I went in and Kathleen was there and said, Pat's dead. So I was 16 going on 17. She, so she would [00:05:00] have only been 13 and I didn't believe her.

[00:05:02] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: I'm like, I don't believe you. I, get out of my way kind of thing. And I kind of looked into the kitchen and saw that my mom was smoking, which she didn't smoke. So. I knew it was true. And and a lot of it's a real blur after that. It's surreal, like my sister's asking me now, like, what do you remember? I said, what I remember most was the knowing before we knew then what happened after we knew, so like, I don't remember going to bed that night. I don't remember. Did I sleep? I have no idea. I remember my, just, most of us felt really sorry for our parents.

[00:05:41] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: Back then, you, there was no, we don't know what grief is. We didn't know what grief is. We didn't know what depression was. It was the night before Thanksgiving. So I don't hate on Thanksgiving at all. And. The day, the next day, I mean, my dad was the cook and he put on a whole [00:06:00] Thanksgiving meal and we sat down and we ate. It was impressive, and I remember that we had a hard time getting his body back.

[00:06:08] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: So it wasn't until the following week that we could bury him and stuff because it was a big snowstorm. So it was wind shear or either wind shear or something freezing on the airplane that caused it to crash. And in fact, and that was in Battle Creek and we were in Lansing in Michigan. So, 

[00:06:28] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: brother wasn't too far away from you when this accident

[00:06:31] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: Wanted to clarify that for everyone.

[00:06:32] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: landed. Yeah, he was coming from Pensacola, Florida hitching a ride on a navy plane he was desperately afraid of flying. But wanted to come home for thanksgiving and I don't know if my mom convinced him to come home or anything like that She didn't end up and talking a lot about it But I don't yeah, I don't know if she said yeah, just come on You'll be fine kind of thing, but he was afraid of flying and they were [00:07:00] landing And I think they went back up And then crashed.

[00:07:04] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: So, what I found out recently was my sister's doing this research is one of the pilot who was very, he had served in Vietnam. Very good pilot. His girlfriend was, and his family were all standing there waiting for him. So I'm like, wow, I, we, I don't even think anybody thought to go to Battle Creek to, To wait then.

[00:07:26] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: I'm really glad we didn't. That would be, that would've been awful.

[00:07:31] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: Right. Well, I mean, you guys are a family of 12 kids. I mean, you gotta take care of your time, right?

[00:07:37] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: you didn't go anywhere together? Yeah, there was no

[00:07:40] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: Totally.

[00:07:42] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: We didn't go anywhere together. We didn't go anywhere. But yeah, there were things like that where like pent water, Michigan is big place to go vacation. And we had a cottage there, but we had a cottage there because Pat found. And that was before everybody, everybody went to Pentwater.

[00:07:58] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: So my dad and [00:08:00] my dad was an architect and he and his architect colleagues went in on a cottage together. And, but my brother was the one who found the spot. So Pat found the spot by camping on it. And then, so we did a little camping on stuff like that. So, you just always had that kind of.

[00:08:14] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: mystique about him, but anyway, so We that so we had thanksgiving the next day. It was very obviously very somber we felt very bad for my parents like, I had kept some writing that I had done back then I was writing in a journal to my brother. And Was not recognizing at all the grief Just, I was depressed.

[00:08:39] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: Everybody was depressed, you didn't need, you didn't know that it, that someone could help

[00:08:43] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: Yeah.

[00:08:44] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: me, but it was 1974. So not a lot of people did do that. So, then we, the wake and funeral, the funeral was on the youngest son, my brother, Bob's birthday. So there are 12 of us. [00:09:00] 16 years apart. So Pat was 22.

[00:09:03] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: We buried him on Bob's six year old birthday. And the wake was the night before and there was a huge snowstorm. So it was just like a hard, my mom was desperately like waiting for her brothers to come and get there. And I remember she was just really so happy when her younger brother, also named Bob.

[00:09:23] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: But the hardest part for me, and I don't know how many of my siblings remember this, but the hardest part of all of it was watching my mom pat the casket where my brother's face would have been because you could not, there were no remains, and I think that's what's hard going to be hard for these, all the people who in these recent plane crashes, you, it's hard to believe when you don't.

[00:09:52] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: You don't see the remains. You don't believe that they are actually gone because you don't see it.

[00:09:59] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: [00:10:00] Yeah.

[00:10:00] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: So the, it took me a long time to, and we hadn't seen him in months anyway because he was in Florida, so it was really, you could live in a fantasy world for a long time. That he hadn't really died.

[00:10:12] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: I had many dreams where he showed back up and there he was, and I still, I look, I have a picture of him in our therapy room, look at his picture and I was just like, where did you go? 

[00:10:23] We hope you're enjoying this incredible episode of the Surviving Siblings podcast. I'm your host, Maya Roffler. We'll be back in just a minute after hearing from our incredible sponsor.

[00:10:40] 50 years after losing her brother to an airplane crash, Michelle Tobin's first novel, Home for the Bewildered, debuted in 2024. Home for the Bewildered is available from Vine Leafs Press. and is the story of psychologist Dorothy Morrissey and her four patients in the [00:11:00] St. Lawrence Asylum in Lansing, Michigan.

[00:11:03] Michelle deliberately chose to set this story in 1974 because that was the year her brother died. Nods to him and her large family of origin are peppered throughout the book. Michelle, herself a practicing therapist, contends that her chosen path was shaped by her brother's death and the subsequent struggles she faced.

[00:11:26] You can read more about Michelle, as well as purchase her book, on her website at www. michelle tobin. com

[00:11:40] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: I love that you're bringing this up, Michelle, because this is something we definitely wanted to talk about and having an open and closed casket. So we'll get back to that in just a second. But something I wanted to point out about what you're saying is I often hear from listeners, people in our groups, people that come to our events, They have a similar experience as you, where if they [00:12:00] don't get, they feel like they're robbed of their closure or they feel like maybe I can just be a little delusional and think just because I didn't see the body, they're not really dead.

[00:12:11] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: And I always like to let people know, like, I didn't experience that because I was in my, like in the hospital with my brother. And so I did get to see him die and that's an experience, but there's a whole, there's all these things that we struggle with after a loss. Right. And it doesn't make one worse than the other.

[00:12:29] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: It's just. Yeah. Things to be highly in tuned and aware of. And so I love that you're talking so openly about this because I think I would struggle with this too. I'm able to put myself in, in, in everyone's shoes and I haven't been through it, but enough to be like, if I didn't see my brother physically, that would have been a hangup for me for a really long time.

[00:12:49] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: And I think this is so amazing that you're sharing this. With everyone because I think it's very difficult. So of course you guys had a closed casket So how did that impact [00:13:00] you through your life because you're still a child, angsty teenager But you're still a child losing a sibling which that also adds additional layers of trauma throughout your life Right to work through that stays with you

[00:13:12] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: Well, and we didn't know about trauma back then. See, that's the thing. I'm a trauma therapist. I know about trauma now, but I did not know about trauma back then. I was on a leadership path. Like I said, I was class president. I was good at math and science. I did not pay attention in English classes. I was desperate to get out of that house and to get out of Lansing. And so, Michigan State was in my backyard, but I wasn't going to go to Michigan State. 

[00:13:40] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: To get out.

[00:13:40] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: again, I was very, I grew up in a small town in Lansing and it's like, you didn't know what out was. No one, at least in my life, was saying, Oh, you should travel.

[00:13:51] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: Oh, you could go here. Oh, you could go there. So I chose the University of Michigan, and everybody said, you're not going to get in. [00:14:00] My dad was like your grandfather will roll over in his grave, because, I wasn't choosing a Catholic university. And I'm like, well, I don't see anybody offering up a Catholic university, or offering to pay for one.

[00:14:12] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: There was no Choices like options, So I got out and I got in and I paid for it all myself And I was a hot mess and that's the thing it's like You learn within the trauma of your family how to adapt and adjust and survive in it And then you step out of it And you fall apart And you don't know why, 

[00:14:42] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: interesting point. I agree with you completely. Yeah.

[00:14:45] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: understands that's what's happening.

[00:14:47] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: So my grief, and I didn't even know it was grief, did not hit until I left.

[00:14:53] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: And had to be out there on my own and I probably made every, and I was very stressed, and my [00:15:00] life outlook was very bleak life sucks was how I would have probably said it then. And I'm working three jobs. I'm trying to pay for everything.

[00:15:10] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: I didn't know. I didn't think I was up to snuff with all the people I was with. Everybody else was smarter. I don't know how I got in, all of that and drinking and smoking and sleeping around and looking for love and, just, things just went from bad to worse. However, I was doing a few things.

[00:15:30] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: And when I look back., I say I'm very proud of myself. One, I was writing to my brother. I was writing in a journal to my brother. And I was keeping that connection alive. To me and to him. So I was doing that. That was smart. And the other thing I was doing was I was walking a lot. So I was always going off on these walks, and Ann Arbor is a great place for walking.

[00:15:56] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: So I had that kind of alone time and that was [00:16:00] real smart, and then when at five years, kind of at the five year mark, which I thought was so interesting and yours I had a couple of experiences, and life was really bleak at that time for me. And I had a, I, what I call a divine intervention.

[00:16:19] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: And basically God letting me know I was loved and it didn't matter how many mistakes I'd made and how bad things were. And I quit smoking and I found a pool, started swimming and I swam for 40 years up until COVID.

[00:16:37] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: get out of town. That's amazing. So tell us a little bit more about this, divine intervention. We've had people from all different walks of life, ages, religious beliefs, but I think all of us believe in something bigger after we've gone through a loss. Tell us a little bit about that because that sounds like a life changing moment and we all

[00:16:56] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: was absolutely life changing for me. Yeah, so [00:17:00] my sister Elise went to school with this guy Ken and I barely knew him, and this particular day I was in my apartment. I'd already graduated, but I was completely lost because I thought I was going to die at 22, so I'm getting through college, but with no plan.

[00:17:19] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: and you felt this because of Pat. You felt like this is what happens.

[00:17:24] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: This is what you're going to die. You're going to die at 22. That was in my head. I even, I went to a priest on campus and he's like, I've lost 5 of my siblings, like, you'll be fine. Basically, and I'm like,

[00:17:36] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: You're like but I'm not so

[00:17:39] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: really helpful to me, but okay. So, I'm sitting in my apartment. By myself, and I could not stop crying and you know I could not go to my parents with the things that i'd been i'd done and i'd already thought also That they had enough on their plate, and they did. Again our as children as the children our [00:18:00] suffering wasn't as bad as theirs.

[00:18:02] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: That's how you looked at it like You could not count your suffering against their suffering of

[00:18:07] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: It's like, yeah. And I mean, especially back then too. I mean, I went through that myself, but like, I can't even imagine what it was like in 1974. It's like, oh, my, you better not even say this bothers you because like, we just lost our child and forget it. Yeah.

[00:18:22] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: uncompared. You can't, you, yeah, you could not, you couldn't take any ownership of your own grief. I did not know that there were college counselors available. I became a college counselor because of that. But yeah, I had no idea of those resources that they were there. If they were there, maybe they weren't, but anyway, so I'm, I'm just kind of downhill slide managing though, to pay for everything, get through college, just keep plowing ahead.

[00:18:46] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: And this one day I'm just could not stop crying. And this guy. I had these outdoor steps into the apartment and this guy was walking up them that I knew was my [00:19:00] sister's friend. I did not know he also went to Michigan. No idea. Michigan's huge. And there he was. And I don't even know what happened.

[00:19:08] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: He just stayed with me the whole day. I interpreted it. The things he said is not from him, but from God. Only got together with him the following Thanksgiving one more time, and I've never seen him again. And what he said was I've always wanted to hold you like this. And I'm like, well, why didn't I'm weeping.

[00:19:32] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: And to my head, it was God saying, because you wouldn't let me.

[00:19:36] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: And after that. I quit smoking that March 9th, my brother's birthday is March 8th. I quit smoking on March 9th and 1981 and picked up swimming and crazy, when I started swimming, I'm like, Oh my God. I like it. I didn't realize how anxious I was.

[00:19:56] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: Like I walked around in college with my hands shaking like, like this all the [00:20:00] time.

[00:20:00] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: Yeah, I can

[00:20:01] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: Smoking, and I started swimming and it was such a drastic Difference like oh My god, this is how i'm supposed to feel like this feels so I feel so much better

[00:20:15] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: Did you feel like it was now you had found an outlet for all of this grief and pain and anxiety? Now you had a physical outlet for this because I've talked about this in many talks that I've done, Michelle, because people will often ask me because I was really stuck in anger in my situation and my loss and It wasn't until I started to, because I was a runner and so it wasn't until I started running again, because I was all the way up until his death and then I stopped because I was so depressed and I was so in shock and so in denial about everything and then when I started again about a year or so later.

[00:20:52] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: That was one of the mega puzzle pieces because I think when you're stuck in any emotion or feeling stuck [00:21:00] in your grief or anything like that, there's a mental component to it. There's a spiritual component to it. Whatever your spiritual background is, whatever you want to believe in, even if you just want to believe in nature, you've

[00:21:09] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: Call it what you want. Yep, call it what you want.

[00:21:12] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: call it what you want. But for me, it's mental, spiritual, emotional, making sure I had the right people in my life, and physical. I often talk about those four components. And so, swimming sounds like your outlet. I used to run and like, envision the guy that did this to my brother. And that was healing for me.

[00:21:29] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: It worked.

[00:21:31] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: So I find it interesting that you needed a physical outlet too.

[00:21:34] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: Well, and you know that there's been an amazing book that's come out since. You've probably have heard of it, The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel van der Kolk. And he's the, guru of trauma therapy. And he is absolutely 100 percent right. And I do think the four components are there, but the best way to release it is physically.

[00:21:56] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: And if you can put the physical with, and I used to joke about it. there wasn't that [00:22:00] language for this one. I realized how well it worked, but I used to joke, all the way through the many years I've been swimming, like with my husband, I'm like, that's meditation in motion. I cannot sit and meditate, but I can swim and meditate.

[00:22:14] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: And, my character, Dorothy plays, she's a big swimmer too,

[00:22:17] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: Now I'm getting where you got all of this from. Yes.

[00:22:20] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: Yeah, that's, it was all my, my, from my personal experience. First, I was healing myself and then I used swimming to think about my clients or issues and it would always come back up in that day, I'd swim first thing in the morning and then I'd be, whatever I was thinking about what I would deal with that day with my clients, so. I, realized it worked for me. I try to get everybody to swim, but not as many, not that many people are enthusiastic about swimming, but it worked so well and it worked right up until our gym closed during COVID, that every single time I'd get out of that pool going boy, that felt [00:23:00] good.

[00:23:00] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: Now I do I walk still but I do a lot of Yin Yoga. So without a pool available, I would say Yin Yoga is a really good way to release trauma because it's meditation and motion, and holding those poses is a lot, makes it a lot easier to get into that zone. And we're lifting again.

[00:23:20] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: But that's all that matters. And I love is that you have an outlet and I It's so tracks with my experience because it was the physical component that brought it all home for me because I could go to therapy all day long if I wanted to, I could, have the right people around me, which I didn't for a while, which you have the same experience.

[00:23:38] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: And then even making those adjustments like the physical outlet is so important. And I love I've never heard that before. Meditation emotion. So we are. Definitely going to use that here from now on, because it's so true. And it's so hard. Like when I walk my dogs, like that's a big thing for me. And like, I'm a walker, I'm not a runner anymore.

[00:23:55] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: Unfortunately, I had a really bad accident, so I can't run anymore, but I still need that [00:24:00] meditation emotion. It's my therapy every day. Like, it's really important that I have that time. So I really connect with that. And I think that's really important for all of you that are listening to have that. And it doesn't have to be swimming.

[00:24:11] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: Like it is for Michelle. It doesn't have to be walking or running like it is for me. But. Whatever works for you to

[00:24:17] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: Find what works. And

[00:24:19] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: Yeah, I think that's wonderful. I do

[00:24:22] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: do try, I mean, I'm a therapist. I believe very strongly, especially the way the world is going in talk therapy, that I wish more people would go into therapy and then take it out less on others, if, but that body component, my job is to teach people skills so that they don't need me anymore, that they can implement these skills.

[00:24:42] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: To release their trauma, to get that calm center, which I think is really important these days, because we are assailed constantly with information and negativity and distractions. So we have to be intentional about it. I think the younger you are, the more [00:25:00] intentional you have to be, because you've grown up with this stuff.

[00:25:03] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: I didn't. So that was already in my wheelhouse, that's How I spent my hours. I wasn't spending my hours scrolling or doing something like that So I think it's really important for people to find that What works to help them? It's I just think of it like a calm and you're in the middle of a tornado, but you Are calm it you have to practice as I tell my clients.

[00:25:26] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: It's like that's not just going to show up you have it's a practice

[00:25:31] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: So if I could say anything, and I have learned to do that for myself in those five years, when I was a hot mess, it's like you were in survival mode, and You gotta give yourself grace to carry around a lot of guilt and shame for years over things you did a long time ago is a waste of your energy.

[00:25:53] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: What a gift to give yourself, right? Because I went through, it's so interesting that we have this in common, this five year mark, and [00:26:00] I hope this is helpful for all of you listening, whether it's day one for you or it's several years in because that was a turning point for me. And that's something you and I connected on, Michelle, before we hit record.

[00:26:09] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: And I always was curious. I'm like why? And then we met and you validated that for me. You're like, Maya, this is a real thing. Five years with you being a therapist and social worker and like having experience with this, that was so fascinating. And that's what's happened along my journey. And I know that will help happen for all of you as well, just like it happened for Michelle, because.

[00:26:29] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: We do get validated along our journey. And I love your message because we say this a lot too, like to give yourself grace, because I think there's such a hurry up and get over it mindset with our culture. And the reality is, I mean, you're here 50 years later and we're having a conversation about Patrick it's with you for life.

[00:26:47] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: It's how you move through it to your point. Like you found swimming, you found forgiveness for yourself. You gave yourself grace. Like these are all really great tools to put in your belts. [00:27:00] If you are feeling stuck in your grief journey or feeling, I mean, I was very self loathing for a while and, just different things.

[00:27:06] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: Right. So I think. These tools propel you forward, but it's also okay if you grieve this for life, but we have to live. That's a part of it as well.

[00:27:17] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: Yes. And you want to be kind to yourself. I mean, that self care is no joke. You can't do anything for anyone. And self love is no joke. You have to value yourself. And, when I took those steps, that's what I'm proud of, that I. chose, yeah, I had tons of self loathing and yet I chose to value myself and do those.

[00:27:40] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: And then, Oh, this works. Oh, okay. And and then you just, that builds, I went from somebody who thought her, my outlook was life is hard to I'm a very hopeful person. And I consider myself a purveyor of hope, to, to my clients, even when I'm not feeling it. So I do think that you've got to start with [00:28:00] yourself and you've got to do those things that tell you that you're value yourself.

[00:28:05] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: I was not good at self care either when going through this. And I just thought if I made it to the next day, that was good enough. And you know what? Sometimes that is good enough, but you know, I think there's just so many great points here, Michelle. I want to go back for a second though, and then we're going to go forward.

[00:28:21] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: So I want to go back to the funeral and I want to make sure we make this point, especially with all of, we now have more than one plane crash that has happened recently, which is so interesting in our timing of recording this episode, but that's how life works.

[00:28:36] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: Right? So we had, you had mentioned earlier, . The difference in having an open and closed casket and after you've been through this specific type of tragedy after losing a loved one to a plane crash and for reasons that you and I know, like the casket was obviously closed and you have that moment in your mind, your heart, your soul of your mom putting her hand over where his head would have [00:29:00] been, talk us, talk to us a little bit about it.

[00:29:03] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: That and I think it's something, these are the secondary things that we think about after the initial loss, right? And they're more losses, right? We call them secondary losses, as we all know, like, you can't have an open casket, or maybe you can't see the body or like, you touched on that earlier about how that was difficult in your process for grieving because you didn't see his body, but talk to us a little bit about that point.

[00:29:26] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: Because I know that's important to you and it's something that unfortunately is. Poor families are gonna have to

[00:29:32] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: Yeah, I mean, I was really probably focused and zoomed in on my parents and my mom in particular, my dad was kind of doing the public face. He was better at that. She was more introverted. And just feeling so sorry for them. My, my parents were actually really good people. And they both had, Terrible parents as far as I'm concerned.

[00:29:55] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: And her, my mom had a sibling loss. Her sister died of scarlet [00:30:00] fever when my mother was three and her mother, my grandmother was not a happy person. And so at the funeral, she acted up. I would probably buy, I would probably diagnose her with either bipolar or something at the now. But she, at the funeral told my mother that my mother was the worst daughter she ever had.

[00:30:20] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: This, Michelle, because there's a lot of people that

[00:30:24] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: Act out.

[00:30:25] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: and have gone through that. And so I always say that. So thank you for sharing, because I'm like, look, I'm not saying this is correct and I'm not a therapist. So I love hearing from a therapist perspective, and this is something that actually happened in your family, but that's their way of grieving.

[00:30:41] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: And it's not the right way, but it's their way of grieving. They're angry, right? So they're lashing out. I thank you for sharing that. Wow.

[00:30:48] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: I was so concerned about my parents, and and just felt so bad for them. And they were like, do you, the only conversation I had with my parents about it was [00:31:00] one day when I came in, I'd probably was drunk.

[00:31:02] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: I know I've been smoking and they were still sitting up and, usually they, they went to bed. You, we just signed in like. Cause they had infants still, they had little kids. So when Pat died, the youngest was six, but you would just sign your name when you got home.

[00:31:16] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: How funny is that? Oh my gosh. Welcome to a big family, right?

[00:31:19] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: So they were up though, which was unusual. And they had this, I had a conversation with them where they were like, we love you. Right. And. And did you think Pat knew we loved him, and I'm like, Oh, of course he did. Of course he did. In the meantime, I'm like, you do you love me?

[00:31:36] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: I don't think there's a right way or a wrong way To grieve,

[00:31:41] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: thank you for saying that, Michelle. I was just going to ask you that question. I have chills. I was going to say, what do you think? And I always say that too. I'm like, there's not a perfect way to grieve there. It's not like, there's not like a checklist, like, here you go. You just lost your brother, or here you go.

[00:31:54] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: You just lost your sister. Here's the checklist. One year you're going to be fine. No, that doesn't

[00:31:59] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: [00:32:00] no does not it does not

[00:32:02] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: And I think people feel so much pressure. They're like, well if I'm not crying and I'm like no, like That's okay. But if you're feeling like you're stuck and you want to get some help and you're aware of that great I love therapy.

[00:32:13] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: I wouldn't be sitting here talking to you guys about all this without therapy I love what we talked about with the physical outlet I appreciate a spiritual outlet. I also appreciate the, the emotional, I just think all of that is so important, but like, it's not all going to happen day one, right?

[00:32:28] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: And don't let people push you into thinking you need to, because our culture is built around. Yeah, let's get back to it. Okay. 6 weeks, no, don't let people push you into their timeline or what they're comfortable with. Find the people who are supportive you can lean into, who are comfortable with death.

[00:32:48] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: And usually that's somebody who's been through it. People who don't, haven't experienced it, they just don't know. It's no fault of their own. Everybody will deal with it at some point. But you you need to find [00:33:00] those people who can sit with you. Can talk with you about it and not cringe, just the ones that are comfortable.

[00:33:06] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: That's all. That's all I can. I can think, but therapy absolutely, go to therapy. If you can,

[00:33:12] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: Yeah. I agree. I think it's, and you have to do it when you're ready to, because some of us are ready right away. And some of us, it takes some time. And so, I've had people that tell me, I waited a couple of years and then I went, I'm like, great.

[00:33:23] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: When I started therapy on my 30th birthday, because I had my daughter, I had just had my daughter and I did not want to revisit the dynamics onto her. I mean, of course, I probably did still, but. I thought, get into therapy. So I was, it was my 30th birthday is when I did.

[00:33:39] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: So that was many years later,

[00:33:41] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: And I think, and I've heard that from many siblings that have lost a sibling as a child, right? Whether it was in their teens or even much earlier. Sometimes they're not addressing that till. 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s. It's okay. You have your own timeline, right? And I think just relieving that pressure valve for people where they're like, I have [00:34:00] to, cause I felt so much pressure on my journey.

[00:34:01] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: So I know other people feel it too. And I hear it all the time. So Michelle, let me ask you this. And then I want to talk about what inspired your book 50 years later, which is so cool. And I want to get into that. But one last question for you as far as advice that you have. So experiencing that and seeing your mom with the casket, and then also knowing that you weren't going to see Pat, what's some advice that you could give for people, especially folks that, I mean, there's a lot of you guys that.

[00:34:28] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: Don't get to see your sibling right because of the circumstances of the death So this is actually really applicable to a lot of you that listen to the show But also the folks that have just lost someone in these plane crashes right because they're not going to see The physical body or, there's that chance that they might not get the remains.

[00:34:47] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: There's so many what ifs happening right now, which I'm sure you guys went through in your experience too. What's some advice you can give them on that with having the closed casket versus the open and just, there's so much that comes up with this question. I'd love [00:35:00] for you to address that for them.

[00:35:01] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: There's so much, and it's almost just like everything we've already said. You have to be your own care. You have to protect. You have to protect your space and your energy. So I think like when you told that guy to get out of the hospital, you trust your own instincts, trust the energy that's coming off of people, especially with something tragic, like a plane crash or a murder or something where there are going to be gawkers, let's say you trust your reactions, your gut instincts.

[00:35:31] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: Lean into the people that are being supportive. They're actually being supportive of you who are doing for you. There is no right way. I don't know that closed or open casket. I don't think it matters. You do whatever is comfortable for you and your family and shut down the naysayers. It's like, Unless they're going through it, they don't really have much right to speak on it.

[00:35:57] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: So I think in that immediate thing, you have to [00:36:00] do that. So you set your boundaries and you allow for your boundaries. And the people who really love you will accept that.

[00:36:07] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: I agree.

[00:36:08] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: And they'll try again. A friend of mine's, her sister's dying now. And I reached out to her cause I hadn't heard anything.

[00:36:15] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: And she texted back and said, I just got done telling my son how supportive you've been. She's not doing well. We're on our way back to Chicago. And and I said, then you call me when you're ready. Because she would have called if she was ready to talk. So, you call me when you're ready and I will definitely be here.

[00:36:33] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: So it's like, you lean into the people who are actually helpful to you. And it is, it's all the things we've said. Then you find your reaches for health. Forgive yourself when you're not handling things perfectly. There's no perfect way to handle anything. Give yourself grace, in terms of how it's going, if you want to lay in bed one day, lay in bed one day, if you want to go for a swim, go for a swim.

[00:36:59] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: There's, [00:37:00] there's just, if you need to talk to somebody, find someone to talk to. It's like. Do what works for you and trust it. So we're so taught not to trust ourselves. We need to learn how to trust ourselves.

[00:37:12] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: I love that advice. I know. I, through my grief journey, I learned, I trust myself 150 percent now I didn't trust myself. And that was silly because we know what we need. We just need to turn inside. So I think that is incredible advice, Michelle, let me ask you this just quick followup and then we're going to get into your book.

[00:37:31] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: So what's the, What advice could you give to these people that have lost, you guys listening, that have lost a sibling and they don't get to say goodbye to the physical body? That's a hang up and that's a question I get from a lot of people and you have that experience. How are you, I don't think we really move on, but we can move forward, right?

[00:37:50] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: I always say that. And I think there is a difference. People are like, oh, that's just semantics. And I'm like, no, like moving on is truly like, Like you leave an old house or like you leave, like, this is a part of you. [00:38:00] Your sibling is a part of you. So moving forward means that we accept what's happened and we're able to carry them with us.

[00:38:06] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: And that's what I look at the difference of them too. It's just my own verbiage, but I would be really curious for you to just give that advice to the folks listening that, cause it's not just a plane crash. It's a lot of, car accidents, different accidents that happen. We don't always get to say goodbye to the body because it's not Physically intact anymore in the way that, you know, and it's maybe not best for our mental health to see it or maybe, just the list goes on.

[00:38:28] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: I'm curious what your what your advice would be on that because you've been able to move forward and now written this incredible book.

[00:38:34] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: Well, that, I mean, it's exactly what you said. I do believe we carry them with us. Their story becomes our story. They're in us. They always will be that. That's why I think I was, I'm so proud of myself for writing him letters, and writing to him in my journal, I was talking to him. I, I was keeping my connection to him alive because, when you're in a big family too, everybody's like, well, I was closest to him.

[00:38:59] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: Oh, I was [00:39:00] closest to him. Oh, you know, I never felt like, oh I don't think I was one of those ones who was closest to him, but I did my thing, so I wrote those letters to him and I did that for many years. And so you always are, and that the whole book is infused with my brother, so it's, it's like, it's just knowing that person's story is now your story, your sibling story, your parent's story, it's all, and that's how every one of us is on this earth.

[00:39:28] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: When I die, I become my children's story, and I just hope it's a positive one. That's really,

[00:39:35] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: think it will be Michelle. So let's, cause you're incredible. I love you. And I love you being on the show and sharing all of this. I just think you're great. So let's talk about your book. Your book came out last year. It's called home for the bewildered. Tell us about this. How did you, so it's technically.

[00:39:52] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: Fictional, but it's based on a lot of true things that happened. So names are changed all of that and you've mixed in a lot of different things and i'm loving it [00:40:00] But I want yeah, I mean you're an incredible writer. So highly recommend you guys grab her book We have it in the comments as well. We'll talk about that at the end But tell us a little bit about this.

[00:40:10] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: How did you come up with this title? Why 50 years later? I want to know I think this is fascinating

[00:40:16] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: Well, it's just life, that's what's so interesting. You don't know how life is going to turn out and home for the bewildered. I went to cooking school in Ireland in 2016 and it was life changing for me in terms of, again, we had some rough patches, disappointments, et cetera, and my attitude was going down.

[00:40:35] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: And so it was just the perfect moment to do that. But in Ireland, they call asylums. homes for the bewildered. So they will often joke like, Oh, he went off to the homes for the bewildered, and, but I thought that is awesome. Like what a great way of saying it, because in fact, any one of us are just one tragedy away from a home for the bewildered, 

[00:40:58] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: Yes, we are.[00:41:00] 

[00:41:00] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: I just thought this makes it, this will make a great title.

[00:41:02] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: Now I had been writing for 40 years. Or 30 years, so I, after I was on 3 months of bed rest with my youngest and my sister, who I hope you will talk to had already written a book. I was very inspired. She can write a book. I can write a book, but I thought I had something to say. And I wrote this book.

[00:41:20] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: Bridget's cross today's Bridget. St. Bridget's feast day. And, but it's a big heartbreak for me because. I got, I can't tell you how many rejections I got. For my book, Bridget's Cross, on St. Bridget's Feast Day. Like, it would

[00:41:36] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: Oh, my God.

[00:41:38] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: what are you doing, and so, I was so devoted to that book for so long, and then it just wasn't working.

[00:41:44] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: But anyway, when I came back from cooking school, I had this whole idea of cooking therapy for college students, and the university I was working at just wasn't picking up what I was throwing down. So I'm always just a little bit ahead of my time. Like it's really recognized now. It wasn't then. [00:42:00] So I was cooking, teaching cooking out of my home and writing this book.

[00:42:04] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: And I chose 1974 because that's the year my brother died. And my character Thomas was born in Japan. So was my brother.

[00:42:13] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: Ruth is from a family of 12. The Catholic school thing with George that, I've been through at Catholic school. So every character has some of my brother in it or me or people I know, or my, mostly my, like family dynamics.

[00:42:29] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: Obviously I'm a therapist and this is with, a lot of the issues that I deal with in therapy, but particularly trauma, but it was all based on. The fact that my brother died and so, and that, the theme of grief and loss is throughout the book, but it's also very hopeful, a very hopeful book, I mean, Dorothy says, and I think it's really true when you're, especially if you're in a catastrophic loss right now to know what Dorothy [00:43:00] says to George, and you may not be there in the book yet, but she says to him, George, if your life can be ruined suddenly, Why can't it be saved suddenly

[00:43:09] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: I love that.

[00:43:10] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: and that was my experience and my life was ruined and Then my life was saved and I didn't ask for either one of those

[00:43:19] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: Yep.

[00:43:20] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: You know So people think like my if I'm worried about someone my husband like oh if they only had a faith life I know I didn't have a faith life and My life was saved

[00:43:30] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: So that kind of trusting in life is really, we don't know what the outcome is.

[00:43:36] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: I would not have written this book had my brother not died.

[00:43:40] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: Was asking my husband, he's a psychologist, so he teaches psychology, but Marilyn French wrote a great book, The Women's Room back in the day. Very feminist, but she had written, and I think in another book that I am not glad for my suffering, but I am glad for where my suffering brought me.

[00:43:59] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: And [00:44:00] I think that's true.

[00:44:01] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: I agree with that 100%. And I can sit here eight years later and feel that way now. It doesn't make it easier, but it definitely is.

[00:44:09] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: choose it. We would not choose it.

[00:44:11] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: Right. But what a great, like, quote and what a great phrase for that, because it's like, yeah, I connect with that so much.

[00:44:19] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: Yep. And we just don't know. We don't know where life is headed. We don't know how we're, what we're going to make of it, and I don't know if I would have even gone to college had Pat not died. I don't know. That's the thing. It's like, so you, what you have to deal with is what is. And so that's a lot of what the book is about it. So it's not really, I got a lot of our family in there and just so many hints. I love so many hints for people in Lansing what they call them Easter eggs, I think I didn't even know that, but you just, these little hints that if you knew him or you knew us, or, my people I went to school with, [00:45:00] that, We're all based on that, like, in like 1974, I only based it because that's when he died, but how it worked for me and choosing Dorothy as the psychologist, because that was the first year women were able to get a mortgage themselves and their own credit cards.

[00:45:16] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: that's right. 

[00:45:17] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: So there was a lot going on then that, um. That worked. Like with George, and the synchronicity of things, like George pleaded guilty by reason of insanity or not guilty by reason of insanity. I just so happened to find an article in the New York Times about how people who do that just languish in asylums or whatever for years.

[00:45:40] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: Probably longer than their sentence would have been. And so that happened, and then I'm shaping Ruth, and I always had Ruth as one of 12, like myself, and the whole grocery store thing with Ruth my mom used to do that. So I would go to the grocery store with my mother, she would go around once, fill up a cart, leave me [00:46:00] standing there with it, and then she'd go around again and fill up another cart.

[00:46:03] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: Well, for a family of 12, I can understand that. So if you guys have not read the book yet this, these are the characters in the book that Michelle has shaped based on her personal experiences. So Michelle, what would you say is the theme for this book? Like coming out of this book and like, what is the overall theme?

[00:46:21] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: I know there's a lot of grief, there's mental health. There's also times changing right in 1974 with the things that we've mentioned, but. What would you say is kind of the overall feeling and theme and how you want someone to feel after they complete that book?

[00:46:35] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: I want them to see, like we're saying, that it's, I want them to feel hopeful that every, in every life, their tragedy falls. And, the part, the hardest part for me for trauma is what people do to each other and the pain we cause in other people's lives. And so you have your trauma, you can't help what happened to you.[00:47:00] 

[00:47:00] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: What you can help is how you manage it going forward. And that's why Dorothy is a good therapist. I didn't want to have a, I hate when therapists are portrayed as foolish or stupid or in it for the money. I can assure you most of us are not in it for the money. We don't make a lot of money. But you want to find someone who is accompanying you on your journey.

[00:47:27] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: And I'm not fixing someone. I'm accompanying them. I'm guiding them. Of course, I've got a lot of experience. But I want them to, and I'm a bit of a cheerleader, I'll have to admit I'm a hopeful person. I want them to feel hope. And so did Dorothy, wanted her characters to feel hope. It's, it is tragic, but I don't know that I just was reading a book that I found so triggering I had to put it away.

[00:47:54] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: My book's not triggering like that because people are talking about what happened to them. And I, in a way I think that's [00:48:00] actually easier to read. 

[00:48:01] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: So, so for me it has been and it's it I am getting that theme through it and that's why I wanted to Ask you that question because that's the goal of our show here too And that's why this is such a beautiful fit because we want to leave you hopeful We're going to talk about what has happened, but we're also going to talk about how we move forward in it And I think I definitely feel those themes in your book and I definitely like the way that you're portraying dorothy because I think You're right.

[00:48:27] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: There's a lot of really negative Stereotypes out there about therapists where they're in it for the money or the, and I'm like, if only you guys knew how emotionally and physically and mentally draining being the, being there for someone. But I also love what you said about, I'm not here to fix you.

[00:48:44] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: We're not broken. We're just humans having an experience. And so I love that you want to accompany. Your well, your readers because you wrote the book, but also your clients, you want to accompany them. And I love that you're hopeful. I love that you're a cheerleader. [00:49:00] I am too. And so I think that's what you need in your life.

[00:49:03] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: And look, we're well aware that not every therapist is. Is for you or perfect for you, but it's like any relationship, right? You've got right. I'm curious about what you think about this, Michelle. So I often tell people, and I've talked about this with other therapists that have been on the show. I say therapy can be like dating.

[00:49:21] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: Like if it doesn't work with the first one, don't give up. You're going to try again. Right. I'm like, if the first one works for you, that's like marrying your high school sweetheart, like good for you. Right. But that's not for everyone. How do you feel about that comparison? Because I feel like that. It's true.

[00:49:36] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: You should keep going back and finding someone that fits for you and is Like you said the right person to accompany you on your journey. I love that

[00:49:45] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: Yeah. If you certainly don't want to feel worse about yourself in the process of therapy. So, I would say you have to, again, you have to trust your instincts. You may want to give that person a second try before you decide, like maybe they aren't just getting it [00:50:00] or maybe you're not being forthcoming or whatever.

[00:50:02] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: So you give them a second try. But if you're feeling, It's not that the topics that you're going in with are going to be difficult. That's not what I'm talking about. Like it is going to be hard work a lot of times, but you should not be feeling worse about yourself, and so like dating, if somebody makes you feel worse about yourself, get the hell out.

[00:50:23] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: Yes

[00:50:24] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: somebody else. You should be feeling Now, and your therapist can challenge you. I challenge, especially someone I've been in, doing work with for a long time, I feel like we're strong enough to, that I can start to challenge them more. But, It's about the work and about what they're doing, not who they are.

[00:50:43] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: Michelle let's tell everyone where they can find your book and find you. So where, and we'll put it in the show notes as well, and you guys will be able to find it, but where can they grab your incredible book?

[00:50:56] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: I would really appreciate it if people went directly to [00:51:00] Vine Leaves Press,

[00:51:01] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: Okay.

[00:51:02] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: Their website, Vine Leaves Press,

[00:51:03] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: They're all women and it's small and they, it's best if for everybody, if you go directly there and you can get the link through my website, which is www.

[00:51:15] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--guest402199--michelle-tobin: michelle tobin. com. And you can find out more about me and Vine Leaves is on there and my mission 

[00:51:24] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: Okay. We're going to include all of that, Michelle. So everyone can connect with you. They can grab your book. They can read your blog. They can connect with your website and reach out to you. If the story resonates, I'm sure it will with many listeners.

[00:51:35] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: Michelle, this has been great.

[00:51:37] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: Well, thank you for sharing Patrick with us and Pat and sharing your insights because it's just interesting how this worked, how you and I connected and then unfortunately, these tragic plane crashes has have happened this January we're in 2025, if you guys are listening at another time.

[00:51:54] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: And so it's interesting how we connect with people at certain times. So Michelle, for that. Thank [00:52:00] you. I know. I mean, 50 years later, it still impacts you. So our our thoughts are definitely with those families 

[00:52:05] 2025-02-01--t06-45-26pm--62d44f94d16e77b66619324b--mayapinion: So thank you again, Michelle, for being here today with us. 

[00:52:08] Thank you so much for listening to the surviving siblings podcast. If you enjoyed this episode as much as I did creating it for you, then share it on your chosen social media platform. And don't forget to tag us at surviving siblings podcast so that more surviving siblings can find us. Remember to rate review and subscribe to the podcast.

[00:52:35] And don't forget to follow us on all social media platforms. We're on Instagram, Twitter, and Tik TOK at Surviving Siblings Podcast. All links can be found in the show notes, so be sure to check those out too. Thank you again for the support. Until the next episode, keep on surviving my surviving [00:53:00] siblings.