Jackson Stotlar on Losing His Sister Lauren to a School Bus Accident

[00:00:10] Jackson Pt 1 maya view: Hey guys, welcome back to the surviving siblings podcast. Today I have, of course, another incredible surviving sibling with me. His name is Jackson Stotler. Jackson, welcome to the show.
[00:00:23] Jackson Pt 1 view: Thanks so much, Maya. It's my pleasure to be here.
[00:00:24] Jackson Pt 1 maya view: I'm really interested in hearing so much of your story because you were quite young when you lost your sister, Lauren. You were 10. So if you could tell us a little bit about. What your relationship was like with Lauren, what your family looked like a little bit.
[00:00:38] Jackson Pt 1 maya view: And then of course, we'll talk about how you lost your dear sister.
[00:00:41] Jackson Pt 1 view: Absolutely. So Lauren was my younger sister. I was four years older than she was. And she was a joy. She was for any astrology buffs out there, she was the most Leo to ever Leo, is a great way to describe her. Full of life vivacious, gregarious, [00:01:00] ostentatious, a little bit bratty. Like she was just so present with everything and she was fearless in ways that I was not.
[00:01:08] Jackson Pt 1 view: So even though I was older, even though I was like the. Trendsetter. I was really a rule follower. I was really nervous about Oh no, we're going to get into trouble. If we do this, like we shouldn't do that. And she was just like, no, we're doing this. It's going to be fun. She was a fearless, like handler of animals.
[00:01:25] Jackson Pt 1 view: I remember she would always be the one to reach in and grab the frog and pull it out. And I'd be like, I don't know if I want to touch that. She would do stuff like that. Our family has, Is now and was always very tight knit. So we have great relationships with our parents. We're very fortunate that our parents have got together young and stayed together and they grew together.
[00:01:45] Jackson Pt 1 view: I know that you've talked a lot about in your show with folks, how loss and traumatic loss can fracture people so often. And it does in many ways, and it did for us, but we were fortunate to, to still be together through and through. Lauren and I were the only siblings together [00:02:00] at that young age.
[00:02:00] Jackson Pt 1 view: And then after Lauren passed away, my brother Nathan was born. So I've had a very big journey of siblinghood and having a before and after timeline with my, my current sibling, who's well, my current sibling, who's embodied that's, I still have a very deep relationship with Lauren, even though she's not physically present anymore.
[00:02:20] Jackson Pt 1 view: Yeah our life was very charmed in a lot of ways. We had really good family. We moved a lot for my dad's career. And so we, but at the time when Lauren passed away, we were living in Michigan.
[00:02:31] Jackson Pt 1 maya view: Got it. So many things that you said already that I love. Yes. We talk about this a lot on the show, how this type of loss fractures the family, and we're going to dive a little bit more into that later, but great point, Jackson. And I think what's interesting too, about your story is you. We're the oldest, right?
[00:02:51] Jackson Pt 1 maya view: And you lost your sister and then you became an only, and now you're a big brother again. And it's also a different dynamic cause it's a brother versus [00:03:00] a sister. So it's just so many different dynamics happening. And we've had other folks on the show share that as well. And I think that is a big thing to touch on because, and this happens obviously more when you lose a sibling young, right?
[00:03:15] Jackson Pt 1 maya view: Where you might change the order. I'm the eldest too. You're the oldest, you're the oldest, you're going to be the oldest but it's a different dynamic that probably happened for you having a relationship with Lauren and then having a relationship with your brother that is physically here. I would imagine.
[00:03:29] Jackson Pt 1 view: Especially since Lauren and I were much more age peers when we were four years apart, which at the time, of course, feels gigantic. But I think about that, especially now of when Nathan is 14 years my junior. So when Nathan was born, I was almost a second parent to him.
[00:03:45] Jackson Pt 1 view: I got to be the fun dad and get to do maybe some less parentally approved things with
[00:03:51] Jackson Pt 1 view: As he grew up.
[00:03:52] Jackson Pt 1 maya view: totally get it. Yes.
[00:03:54] Jackson Pt 1 view: But now he's about to turn 21. And so that's, it's he's finally getting to the point of adulthood where we can [00:04:00] have a really adult relationship and if Lauren was still here, we would have already had that for many years.
[00:04:05] Jackson Pt 1 view: So there's definitely some of that dynamic. And and again, I know that. Y'all have spoken to this before, but how you regrieve at different points of your life, and as you hit different maturity markers, and you have to re grapple with the fact that person that could have been here is not.
[00:04:21] Jackson Pt 1 maya view: And as you go through those milestones with your younger brother, it, you can't help, but think about. Your sister too, right? So there's all of that. So it's a journey. And that's a lot of what we're talking about today on your episode. And I get it. I have a sister who's 10 years younger than me.
[00:04:37] Jackson Pt 1 maya view: And so my brother was three years younger than me. So I have a lot of parallels with you. I get it. Losing him, it's like I lost so many things, but I do have a sister who's ten years younger than me, and yeah, I was a cool mom,
[00:04:47] Jackson Pt 1 view: Yeah. Yeah. 
[00:04:48] Jackson Pt 1 maya view: Least it was supervised, right?
[00:04:49] Jackson Pt 1 maya view: Going to get a tattoo, or having a drink, or, at least it was supervised, right? Versus maybe some of the stuff we did,
[00:04:55] Jackson Pt 1 view: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. My, my basement has always been a very safe zone
[00:04:59] Jackson Pt 1 view: us to talk [00:05:00] about stuff. If he wants to try something, it's Hey, it's okay. You're in a very safe spot. So you're good. I got you. And of course, too, I'm sure that some, some of this too is sibling loss, but I feel of course, I'm going to take care of him.
[00:05:10] Jackson Pt 1 view: He's my guy. I'm going to protect him. So he's not going to be out on his own ever.
[00:05:14] Jackson Pt 1 maya view: yeah. I totally get it, and I think losing a sibling too makes you even, as the oldest, I think it does make you even more kind of protective, and I think it just, it ups the ante even more.
[00:05:26] Jackson Pt 1 view: And this is an interesting thing too, about losing. Lauren Young was, I was really forced to age very quickly in compared to some of my peers. And and that was, it was just, it wasn't for not, my parents didn't want to not be present. They wanted to be there and still be.
[00:05:43] Jackson Pt 1 view: Good parental figures, but they just couldn't be, they were too deep in their own grief. They were, there was a couple year period where we were just also lost. And so I had to take a little bit more control over how I was going to get through the day, my life, all of those things. And so it [00:06:00] really it aged me in a way that then I'm glad that my brother hasn't experienced that.
[00:06:04] Jackson Pt 1 view: Like he's he is Joyously radiant at this age that he's at in ways that I wasn't always at the same age. And so it's nice to see him get to have that.
[00:06:14] Jackson Pt 1 maya view: Oh, I totally get that, and I know some of you So many of the siblings listening who have lost a sibling young are going to get exactly what you're talking about, too, because, and I think that's a beautiful place to be, Jackson, because we're able to be happy that they experienced that joy and, to go deep for a second.
[00:06:31] Jackson Pt 1 maya view: Sometimes I think, even though it's a horrific thing to lose a sibling and to lose them so young, but sometimes we're given these paths in life and we don't know why, but. As we get older, we're like, okay, I get it. Like I could handle it, maybe. Yeah. I had to grow up super fast, but I get it.
[00:06:48] Jackson Pt 1 maya view: I get why it was me carrying this. And that comes with time.
[00:06:51] Jackson Pt 1 view: absolutely. Absolutely. That's the one thing about this time with trauma and time on your journey is hopefully people [00:07:00] can get to this place, but you get to a place where you experience such pain And you learn that you really can walk through fire without getting burned. Like you really will come out to a spot where you are able to engage with life in a joyful, positive way.
[00:07:16] Jackson Pt 1 view: You can see the that, that kind of loss, that, that sadness, that grief is just a part of what it means to be a person and that every one of us will experience that. My mom's great phrase is if you're going to breathe, you're going to grieve. We are all going to experience that and we can survive it and we can move forward to live full, joyful, jubilant lives.
[00:07:40] Jackson Pt 1 view: And it does make some of the things a little bit sweeter. I look at the fact that, and you talk about those pathways that you, Can't necessarily see in the moment. I think about those all the time about how one, one hardship here actually opened up things many years down the road that I wouldn't have thought about or known of.
[00:07:59] Jackson Pt 1 view: Brother would not [00:08:00] have been born if my sister hadn't passed away. That's just my parents were done having children. They were really like set with a family of four and then. The unthinkable happened he would not be here. And I wish that they could both be here, but I certainly would not trade him for anything.
[00:08:18] Jackson Pt 1 maya view: Yeah, it's the gifts in the pain, right? It's the gifts in the pain that we get and it's a real thing. Oh, you just said so many incredible things, Jackson. I'm loving our conversation already, but I think that's beautiful. Remind us what your mom's phrase is. If you breathe, you're gonna grieve. Is that what she
[00:08:33] Jackson Pt 1 view: exactly, if you're going to breathe, you're going to grieve.
[00:08:37] Jackson Pt 1 maya view: I love it.
[00:08:37] Jackson Pt 1 view: I know.
[00:08:38] Jackson Pt 1 maya view: mom. Okay, mom. I'm stealing that one. I'm using that one. 
[00:08:41] Jackson Pt 1 view: Shout out Julie Sattler. She got it. She nailed
[00:08:43] Jackson Pt 1 maya view: Yes, absolutely. Take us back though, and then we'll jump forward again to when you lost Lauren. You were ten, Lauren was six. Tell us what happened this, obviously this horrific day to sweet six year old Lauren.
[00:08:58] Jackson Pt 1 maya view: Oh my
[00:08:59] Jackson Pt 1 view: [00:09:00] Yeah. It was March 21st, 2000. Lauren and I, at that age, I was in fifth grade. She was in first grade. That was the year where the lower schools and the upper schools started taking different buses. So I would start school earlier and come home earlier. And so we were on just Different bus routes, different times.
[00:09:15] Jackson Pt 1 view: So I was always home when Lauren would come home. This day was a little bit unusual, because I had been picked up. I can't remember what medical appointment it was that I had to go to. But we went in and I was then, I survived whatever shot I had to get or whatever. And we had stopped by Dairy Queen on the way home, so I could get a little pick me up treat.
[00:09:35] Jackson Pt 1 view: And And we actually, when mom and I were at the line at Dairy Queen, we saw a bus go by and we were pretty sure it was Lauren's bus. And, it was one of those where we were almost like, ah, should we get her? Should we have just go down to the next stop and flag her off and just say just come home now and do that.
[00:09:50] Jackson Pt 1 view: And we didn't cause you know, it was just like I'll just meet her at home. We got home. We managed to beat the bus home. We were there waiting. I was hanging out after school, playing around. [00:10:00] And the school bus that day, normally there had been a family that would come and wait.
[00:10:05] Jackson Pt 1 view: And our our neighborhood, we were like the first driveway in the neighborhood. And the bus would go in, turn around, and then stop in front of our driveway, and then the kids would all cross in a group in front of the bus, and then be at our driveway to be picked up and walked back or driven back through the neighborhood.
[00:10:23] Jackson Pt 1 view: This particular day, the Family of the of the kids who would normally cross with Lauren had been a little late, so they were sitting back further, so all of the kids, except Lauren, went alongside of the bus to walk back towards where their parents were all waiting, behind this little turnaround in the neighborhood.
[00:10:42] Jackson Pt 1 view: So Lauren was the only kid crossing in front of the bus that day. We still don't know. To this day, don't necessarily know a hundred percent what happened outside of the fact that this bus driver who had unfortunately a pretty rough record of unsafe driving and instead [00:11:00] of having that addressed by the school was just moved from route to route when parents would complain.
[00:11:07] Jackson Pt 1 view: And so it was a pretty, it was, yeah, a really terribly managed situation. So we had this unsafe person who was just, I look at it now, she was a young woman, right? This was a young twenty something woman who had some terrible things happen in her life. She was begrudgingly doing this job, I think.
[00:11:25] Jackson Pt 1 view: I don't think she really wanted to do it, be there, any of those things. And she was not paying attention, she was not safe, and she saw most of the kids walk over, and she just gunned it. and she floored it. She had almost left the neighborhood before someone literally ran after her and flagged her down to say, you can't go.
[00:11:45] Jackson Pt 1 view: You just, you hit a child. So Lauren was hit so forcefully that she died immediately, which we found out more later when she was taken to the hospital, but I was up in the house with mom. Suddenly we hear [00:12:00] commotion happening down at the bottom of our driveway, and we run outside, and there's Lauren lying there, and there's way too much blood
[00:12:09] Jackson Pt 1 view: I know immediately that the way she's lying, my mom and I both were right there, we knew immediately from how she was lying, from the blood that was And it was that, I'll never forget how vividly bright that was. I know that's a thing that people like, I've never been a horror movie fan, but the movie blood that they show in those, I'm like, that's not what fresh blood looks like.
[00:12:28] Unfortunately we know. And it's shocking to, take that in. And my mom sent me back into the house. She was like, Hey, go get Lauren's blanket. Go get her stuffed wolf puppy. She'll want to see that when she wakes up. And even though I'm, we're both like, she's not waking up.
[00:12:40] Jackson Pt 1 view: We know this, we know she's not waking up. It was still the moment of I have something to do and I'm going to go do it. So All of that then moment becomes that slow blur trauma bubble of the vivid moments that I remember, the things that are completely lost, the slowness of it, the quickness of it.
[00:12:59] Jackson Pt 1 view: Lauren was eventually [00:13:00] taken to the hospital with my mom riding in the ambulance with her. I had a neighbor had to transport me to the hospital. My dad had It was on a business trip. He had just landed in Texas when he got a call then, and this was 2000. So it was before like cell phones, like someone had to call the hotel that he was staying at or the airline or something, but then he got the message.
[00:13:23] Jackson Pt 1 view: Your child has been in an accident. You need to come home immediately. . Of all of the trauma that we went through, I think about my dad and the journey that he then had to take flying back. I think about parents and that moment of not knowing whether or not his child was alive or dead and flying to get there, I think about that all the time.
[00:13:41] Jackson Pt 1 view: So we ended up at the hospital. She was pronounced dead almost immediately upon arrival. Unfortunately her body had been so devastated by this accident we were absolutely like, yes, whatever organ donation we can take part in, we will. The only things that could be salvaged were her corneas and her [00:14:00] heart valves.
[00:14:00] Jackson Pt 1 view: Everything else was destroyed. And then we, opted for an open casket in the days afterwards. Either the funeral home did their best, but that was always one of those things too, that I was as a young child, I wouldn't want, I wish that I didn't have had to see like it wasn't my sister lying there.
[00:14:16] Jackson Pt 1 view: And so it wasn't a way for me to be able to say goodbye. Cause she didn't look anything like they couldn't do it. They couldn't make her look that way. Yeah. But the community really came out in force and we had so much support. Lauren was so gregarious. She was best friends with everyone in her class.
[00:14:36] Jackson Pt 1 view: So her whole class turned out I've always been, even though I'm a Cancer, not a Leo, but I do have lots of friends. 
[00:14:41] We hope you're enjoying this incredible episode of the Surviving Siblings podcast. I'm your host, Maya Roffler. We'll be back in just a minute after hearing from our incredible sponsor. Grieve Well is a nonprofit based in Michigan that seeks to [00:15:00] build a community that provides healthy grieving and healing so that adults can grieve well and lead a full life after loss.
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[00:16:12] Jackson Pt 1 maya view: I was going to ask you that. I was like, hang on. I didn't want to interrupt. But I was like, cause I'm a Virgo. So I'm
[00:16:18] Jackson Pt 1 view: Oh, excellent.
[00:16:20] Jackson Pt 1 maya view: Yes. So that's why we already get on. Yes,
[00:16:22] Jackson Pt 1 view: Perfect. Perfect.
[00:16:24] Jackson Pt 1 maya view: I was really getting some water vibes
[00:16:26] Jackson Pt 1 view: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
[00:16:27] Jackson Pt 1 maya view: okay. So you're a cancer,
[00:16:28] Jackson Pt 1 view: I'm a
[00:16:29] Jackson Pt 1 maya view: This, we're going to hear this through your whole episode, of course, is just the heartfelt, the heart, because cancers are so heartfelt. Sometimes they're called emotional, but I think your strength is your heart, for sure. And you can hear that already in your conversation and that's why your sister, the Leo, was the spicy one,
[00:16:46] Jackson Pt 1 view: Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Exactly. , I'm a Sagittarius moon. I'm So emotional. And then also I'm just like really logical, planned, oriented, all of those things. So it's a nice balance and I do have Sagittarius rising so I can get a little spicy with [00:17:00] stuff,
[00:17:00] Jackson Pt 1 maya view: that is why you have the connection with her. Okay, this is an astrology
[00:17:04] Jackson Pt 1 view: right.
[00:17:05] Jackson Pt 1 view: There you go.
[00:17:06] Jackson Pt 1 maya view: The fire and then you had a Leo sister. That makes total
[00:17:09] Jackson Pt 1 view: Exactly. Exactly. It was a great balance. It was a great match. Again, I think now, but I wonder what we'd be getting on as adults. I'm sure we'd go on a lot of interesting adventures. And then I'd also be like, your life is too much. I need a break. So we really had an outpouring of support from the community.
[00:17:21] Jackson Pt 1 view: That was amazing. That was wonderful. There was then some rifts in the community later when it started to come out about how much the school Had mismanaged like the driving situation.
[00:17:35] Jackson Pt 1 maya view: the bus driver.
[00:17:36] Jackson Pt 1 view: And so there was then there was a lawsuit against the school of Hey, you guys really screwed this up. And and that was the way that the school chose to proceed with that lawsuit, they Essentially claimed negligence.
[00:17:50] Jackson Pt 1 view: And so because they claimed negligence, we couldn't bring anything to show like the depths of negligence was what I learned about court proceedings. And this is happening when I'm, 10 to 14. I was [00:18:00] severely out of the legal loop at this age and shielded from most of it. But essentially, because it the facts of all of that we knew weren't coming to light and we were bound to not necessarily bring them to light.
[00:18:11] Jackson Pt 1 view: A lot of the the community members then just saw oh these people are greedy and are suing the school and they're taking money from all of our tax dollars and all of our, our things like that. So , that caused some, and the woman who had been driving the bus yeah.
[00:18:26] Jackson Pt 1 view: She had been, from that community for her whole life and had some trouble. So there was some, and we had moved there semi recently. And so there was a lot of some of those tensions of like outsiders coming in and busting our school apart versus, the this poor woman who had a tough experience.
[00:18:42] Jackson Pt 1 view: So there was definitely some of that and it was a, tension of then when we did leave that, we no longer live there. It was a tough moment of okay my sister's buried here, but we've had a mixed feeling in this community. So what does it mean for us? How do we move from that?
[00:18:56] Jackson Pt 1 view: That was definitely a journey we went on as well.
[00:18:59] Jackson Pt 1 maya view: [00:19:00] Yeah. And 10 to 14, what an impressionable time for you to be exposed to all this. Stuff, right? All these basic politics going on in your community, and then also this, just so much to unpack there, but What was this bus driver prosecuted? What happened as far as that?
[00:19:19] Jackson Pt 1 view: Yeah, there was both a a criminal suit against her for nailing. She was, I believe she was found guilty of like a misdemeanor felon. It wasn't vehicular manslaughter, which is what she was originally, I think, charged with, and then it was bargained down to a lesser charge.
[00:19:31] Jackson Pt 1 view: She, I don't believe served, she maybe served, A very minimal jail sentence, like maybe 30 some days in prison, but I don't even know if it was that. I think it was primarily community service that she was sentenced with, and then she had her license revoked. That was the extent to which she was punished.
[00:19:46] Jackson Pt 1 view: My parents felt very intensely about that for a long time, about having seen somebody who didn't seem to take ownership of her actions, has caused something so traumatic, having all that. [00:20:00] I have a I think it's because I was so young. I have a different feeling about it than they have. I've always had a different kind of relationship with forgiveness and the moment and the bus driving the community.
[00:20:11] Jackson Pt 1 view: And part, I think that is absolutely because I didn't have to live in it the same way that they did. They shielded me from so much of that. I'm at the point of my life now, especially, that I've seen so many people who have lost somebody who then they've gone after that person and have wanted, them to receive the death penalty, to be put in prison for life, to be punished to the maximum extent of the law, and that has not brought healing or closure for them 
[00:20:35] Jackson Pt 1 maya view: Oh, Jackson. So well said. Yes. This is exactly what I wanted to ask you about. Yes. A lot of folks. And we're going to talk about grieve well in a minute. So I know you guys have experience with this too. We do support groups. We offer events and different things and time again.
[00:20:50] Jackson Pt 1 maya view: And if you're a sibling listening to this, you know what we're talking about where you might be on this journey, me losing my brother to homicide. I thought that was going to bring me peace, right? I thought that [00:21:00] was going to bring me, bring him justice and this, but you are so dead on Jackson because the reality is we spend all this time thinking that, and then whatever we end up getting right, whether it's like this bus driver got jail time, wasn't that much, something happened, right?
[00:21:15] Jackson Pt 1 maya view: I always tell people that are going through something like what you went through or what I went through, whether is someone at fault, it's not going to bring your sibling back. It's not going to change anything. So there's, so you shift from going through this horrific, significant, perhaps the most significant loss you'll go through in your entire life, thinking, okay I'm going to work on that, but I'm really going to go after this next, right?
[00:21:39] Jackson Pt 1 maya view: This next thing. And you think that's going to give you this relief and you're right. There's a big buildup. And then you're like, wait a second. They're still not here. All of that. It almost prolongs your grieving. I think you just hit the nail on the head with
[00:21:50] Jackson Pt 1 view: absolutely. It keeps you in a in a state of when someone's so at fault and you can point to it and say, that was wrong and. And you deserve [00:22:00] to, experience consequences of that wrongness that puts us in a state of righteousness, right? We're right about the fact that person was was, did this wrong and did this harm.
[00:22:09] Jackson Pt 1 view: What our current justice models lack entirely is any sort of reparative justice. We have a punitive justice system, which is definitely an eye for an eye. It's you cause you, you come. committed harm, you're going to receive harm now, because that's what you deserve. We don't have a sense of what it means to be restored by a process of healing together in a, in that kind of sense.
[00:22:31] Jackson Pt 1 view: Because obviously the person, the people who persecute, who are at fault for these things, if they have Any sense of empathy, they're harmed too. And that's, that took me a very long time to ever get to the, to really see the person who caused Lauren's death as a whole person,
[00:22:49] Jackson Pt 1 view: You start to give them the complexity and nuance too, it's wow, yeah, they're also dealing with the fact that they, Killed someone or caused some harm, and of course, not everyone is, [00:23:00] has the
[00:23:00] Jackson Pt 1 maya view: Disclaimer, not everyone is that person and some people should be off the street, right?
[00:23:04] Jackson Pt 1 view: Exactly, yeah and it's that safety thing of can this person even be part of the community anymore?
[00:23:09] Jackson Pt 1 view: Possibly not, and that's the grappling of how we even it. Deal with that. But what it definitely doesn't do is one, it never brings your sibling back. And two, if you pour all of your time into that outcome, and you think that's going to provide some kind of magical relief or closure, that is just not it's just a part of the story.
[00:23:32] Jackson Pt 1 view: It's not the end of it. And it's one of my favorite lines from one of my favorite songs is by Brandi Carlile. And the line is nobody gets out alive and nothing wholly comes from being right. Ooh, unfortunately, yeah, that is so true. And yeah, so for me, was easier for me when I reached adulthood and when I really started to grapple with forgiveness and all of these things. It was much easier for me, who [00:24:00] hadn't lived through to carry the adult responsibility of getting through that process, to be able to say, She was a young woman who was so hurt in so many ways. She was clearly in a ton of pain, yes, she did, she should not drive a vehicle anymore. But she needs to live her life and her being in prison would not change substantially what needs to happen going forward and certainly wouldn't bring the kind of healing that any of us needed. 
[00:24:31] Jackson pt 2 maya-1: So Jackson, you were telling us a little bit about how your parents, of course, had this adult experience, right? And losing their youngest child, losing their only daughter. But for you, you're 10. And even though it was an experience that pushed you to grow up quite Quickly, you feel like in some ways that it sheltered you, your parents did a really good job of that and helping you on your grief journey.
[00:24:57] Jackson pt 2 maya-1: I'd love to hear more about that. What was this like [00:25:00] for you? And what are the positives? And then also like, how are you still take us through your grieving? Cause this is 24 years. So I'd love to hear more about that. But also how has the journey been? Because I'm sure it's evolved and changed as you became a teenager, as you became, a teenager, Went, maybe went off to school or started working and like in your 20s and now in your 30s, like I'm sure it's been an evolution for you.
[00:25:22] Jackson pt 2-1: And that's exactly it. Evolution is the right word to call that. Is it, everyone knows this. And of course there's some people who, when you're fresh in grief, you don't necessarily want to hear that you'll always be grieving a little bit, but you will just, you, it changes and it shifts and it goes from, much like that active wound to something that is an old injury.
[00:25:43] Jackson pt 2-1: It will stay there. I'm going to be there. You'll still feel it. You'll still know about it. Some days that are going to, it's going to hurt more than others, but you learn how to be whole with it. Yeah, the early years were definitely blurry in a lot of ways, and it was that, it's that time of it's an [00:26:00] awkward time.
[00:26:01] Jackson pt 2-1: of life anyway, that early tween to early teen years. , as a very rule following kid and very like much like order and strict. And I had just a really internal sense of morality of what I should do to be a good person or be good. It really followed the rules. I've come to expand that a little bit in my older years about following, et cetera, but That kind of helped me, I think, a little bit, have some grounding basis because I did really need to step up and care for myself in ways that other people who have absent parents grow up in different, at different rates and have to take on more responsibilities and do different things.
[00:26:41] Jackson pt 2-1: Parents are absent for a whole variety of reasons that are oftentimes not solely their responsibility or fault. And so that was definitely the case here was my parents were grieving. My parents were totally lost in their own journeys, in their own ways, and finding their ways out. Fortunately, we still held on very tightly to each other as a [00:27:00] family, and we were physically present with each other, even when we couldn't be emotionally present with each other.
[00:27:06] Jackson pt 2-1: So those years were tough and kind of a blur, you get into the high school period there. I'm starting to become more of an independent person. And also then I have my baby brother, who's now come onto the scene just as I'm starting my freshman year of high school. So that was a very cool experience and a new experience of that age of my life was really figuring out kind of those.
[00:27:30] Jackson pt 2-1: Early, you're starting to get some more distance from the loss of, that 5 to 10 year period of grief Yeah, because you're writing about that in that chunk there now Maya? Yeah,
[00:27:42] Jackson pt 2 maya-1: Yeah.
[00:27:43] Jackson pt 2-1: you start to do a lot of heavy processing there. You start to see things oftentimes with more nuance, starting to have more of a perspective of what kind of had happened, especially for me becoming an adult was really like, Oh, it contextualized a lot of things for [00:28:00] me.
[00:28:00] Jackson pt 2-1: And then also having the joy of having a little brother and having when my little brother was, when my parents told me that they were having another child they told me they were having another child, and originally was, I was like, great, I'm ready for you to adopt a baby girl.
[00:28:12] Jackson pt 2-1: And they were like, that's not what's happening. 
[00:28:13] Jackson pt 2 maya-1: You gotta love like a kid's perspective on this, right? It's great! That's awesome! Okay!
[00:28:19] Jackson pt 2-1: really was. I was like fully ready. I was like, excellent. I know exactly what's going to happen. And they were like, that's not anything. I was devastated when they said, you're going to have a little brother, because then I was like, I don't know how to be a big sibling to a little brother.
[00:28:32] Jackson pt 2-1: I know how to be a big sibling to a little sister. I wanted to do that again. I also, now I'm going to have to lose at video games. This is the worst. And it turned out to be fantastic. And I love losing at video games. But that was a definitely a growth moment as becoming then a young adult, I really, I naively thought at the age of 18 that I'm like, wow, I'm really well adjusted to this.
[00:28:53] Jackson pt 2-1: I've got, a really good handle on this. Lauren's with me in, in, in spirit is how I feel about her. We have this [00:29:00] relationship. It's great. And then I went off to college and going to college, I dealt with grief in a whole new way all over again. And I was not expecting that. And I've come to see that with big life changes at all stages, I grieve in different ways.
[00:29:17] Jackson pt 2-1: And
[00:29:17] Jackson pt 2 maya-1: so true, Jackson. Yes. Yes. 
[00:29:21] Jackson pt 2-1: So I agree. I was grieving then for not for the for this independence, for how things were changing, for being a young adult, for having things that I wanted to talk to, In each period, I know I wanted to talk to someone about how much I miss my parents and also how nuts they were driving me at different points, I wanted to have that kind of relationship.
[00:29:40] Jackson pt 2-1: Instead, Nathan's coming and sitting on the floor in a beanbag with me and he's like sitting in my lap playing Mario Kart. It was a very different experience of, a sibling visiting you at college. When I then moved abroad for a year, and that was, I thought, Oh, great. I've really handled now like this grieving of being an [00:30:00] adult and like being in college, and then I lived abroad and I was re grieving all over again for this new period of life.
[00:30:06] Jackson pt 2-1: So that was really the point when I realized to that grief. Moment in my journey was about 10 years out then from when Lauren had died, and I was really struggling and I started to see a therapist. In the UK where I was living for the year. And that's when it clicked to me Oh, I'm going to grieve every single big change.
[00:30:30] Jackson pt 2-1: There's going to be a new experience with it. And that's going to happen for forever. Okay. I can do that. I will figure that this is something that I can walk and figure out how to do. And that gave me the gentleness to approach that. And at this point, 24 years later, multiple big life changes and my big upcoming life changes, I'm about to get married.
[00:30:55] Jackson pt 2-1: And so I'm really excited about that. And we're thinking about, okay, [00:31:00] how do we include Lauren in the wedding?
[00:31:02] Jackson pt 2 maya-1: Yes,
[00:31:02] Jackson pt 2-1: And I've only have just reminded myself of Oh yeah I'm probably going to be really emotional on, on my wedding day at different for different reasons. And now it's Oh, it reminds me to hold myself gently during those times. And to give myself the grace of feeling all the feelings. Is that's the thing that I've learned about grief and life and joy and being human is it's not about not feeling the hard feelings. It's about feeling all of the feelings and holding yourself with gentleness and kindness and holding others with that grace to, to know that's just part of the human experience and to as much as we can, Relish all of it and continue to carry it forward.
[00:31:46] Jackson pt 2 maya-1: I think that's so beautiful, Jackson. I agree. I love how you say hold yourself gently because I think we're like grievers are really hard on themselves and it's because, right? I mean, it's because we've been told you have to, [00:32:00] okay, it's been a couple days get over it, go back to work. And it's just it's like awful.
[00:32:04] Jackson pt 2 maya-1: It's awful. But you bring up something that we talk about a lot too. Congratulations. When is your wedding? We have to ask.
[00:32:10] Jackson pt 2-1: It was 1111. We. Yeah, I know. We. 111124. We were like, that's really good numerology. That seems fun. We're
[00:32:17] Jackson pt 2 maya-1: You are right up my alley. I'm all about numerology too. Yes, that's a great day to get married. I love that you mentioned this because I hear this again, hear this all the time from siblings. Hey, I'm about to get married. My, my fiance, my partner. Never met my sibling right or met them or didn't you know all these things and I relate to that too because when I got Married my husband I met him two years after My brother was killed and so I you know, it was like, how do I incorporate this?
[00:32:46] Jackson pt 2 maya-1: How do I there's all those things? And you're right It's another milestone and you're going to feel all the feels and I did And I pushed a lot of it down and I tell people all the time I wish I hadn't have done that and I really
[00:32:58] Jackson pt 2-1: that's good. [00:33:00] Yeah.
[00:33:02] Jackson pt 2 maya-1: have, like the wedding and the whole experience, because I didn't feel like I could.
[00:33:06] Jackson pt 2 maya-1: But it's quite the opposite. And I think that's beautiful that you're already thinking about how you're going to incorporate Lauren, because I think that's the healthier way to deal with it. And it can be something, I've had folks come to me, you guys, siblings and say, I just, I carried a couple of her favorite flowers in my bouquet.
[00:33:21] Jackson pt 2 maya-1: I'm like, that's awesome. Or yeah, or my groom or, or I, if it's a guy, I wore the color of my brother that he loved in a pocket, like little things, it doesn't have to be magnanimous. And like huge it's I just think it's important that there's representation and that's, I try to share my regrets with folks.
[00:33:39] Jackson pt 2 maya-1: I'm like, okay, this is what I wish I would have done better. And I think it would have been healthier. So I love that you shared that too.
[00:33:45] Jackson pt 2-1: Oh, I appreciate that. Yeah. Oh, that's, those are such wonderful ideas. I was just talking to my fiance this morning about, hey what are we thinking? What are we getting? She's a big advocate of, hey, carry a picture of her in your pocket so that we can pull that out and have it right there for pictures with us.
[00:33:57] Jackson pt 2-1: That's a really great, I love that idea. Love the idea of [00:34:00] the colors. That's a good. And he's he's. integration? Yeah. Lauren
[00:34:02] Jackson pt 2 maya-1: Wish I made that up, but it didn't come from me, it was other people. But, and that's another thing too, and I'm glad we're talking about this because I get asked the question a lot, but it's so personal. I can't tell you what's gonna make sense to you.
[00:34:15] Jackson pt 2 maya-1: I love what your fiancé is saying, Carrie, the picture, because that makes sense for you, right? Carry a picture of Lauren, but I think for everyone, it's so personal. And that's the same thing with like anniversaries and how to honor them. I always kind of push the question back, Jackson. And I go what was important to your relationship?
[00:34:33] Jackson pt 2 maya-1: What makes you think about each other? Like for you with Lauren, she loved animals. She was spunky. She was feisty. There's so many things I'm sure that you connect with. And that's special. And so that's not really for me to tell what you can do, but we can give you ideas all day long, but
[00:34:49] Jackson pt 2-1: Absolutely. 
[00:34:50] Jackson pt 2 maya-1: So personal.
[00:34:51] Jackson pt 2-1: The then you have those, then you have that kind of cadre of ideas and being able to funnel that into and let this let that energy kind of flow about what really would embody that [00:35:00] presence here. If she were could be here, what would it do?
[00:35:02] Jackson pt 2-1: And I think for, I mean, the whole setup of our wedding is very much like what Lauren would have just absolutely had to kick off. We're, here. Getting married in Vegas. We're getting married by Elvis. Who's going to be in drag. It's going to be awesome. Like we're, it's going to be a blast. But that actually a quick side story about that kind of going with kind of the, allowing the person to speak through and really finding an idea that speaks to them and finding that way to do an honor memorial, I'd always wanted to get a a memorial tattoo for Lauren.
[00:35:29] Jackson pt 2-1: And I had several years ago, I had gone out and I was getting a tattoo with my then partner at the time and her best friend were visiting and we'd all decided we were going to go get this one the planets in a line. And I was like, Oh, cool. That's, this is really cool. And so we were, we're going, we're headed out to the tattoo shop that day.
[00:35:45] Jackson pt 2-1: And I had been really into ghost, the kind of metal band at the time. And. I listened to them on my way in and I was like, this is great. And I got to the tattoo parlor and they're, it's starting, I'm starting to get like really good vibes. It's like, Oh, I [00:36:00] feel like Lauren might be here right now.
[00:36:02] Jackson pt 2-1: This is feeling good. And it was with this very much like there was my partner at the time and her best friend were very, had a very sibling like relationship and I'm kind of observing that and I'm feeling really good about it. And That we're like shutting down a tattoo parlor because we had booked late appointments and they're like, Hey, what do you want to listen to?
[00:36:17] Jackson pt 2-1: And the tattoo artist said, Hey, put on ghosts. Like we love, and I was like, Oh, awesome. So ghost is playing and I'm the last person to go and I'm getting this tattoo done. And I'm talking to the artist and I was saying, I've always thought about doing a memorial tattoo, but I'm really not sure what to get.
[00:36:34] Jackson pt 2-1: Her name doesn't feel like it resonates well with me for that. I don't really necessarily want to do like the spot of her grave cause she's not in the ground. It feels those things don't really sit with me. And he said I always encourage people to get the tattoo that they think the person would have gotten.
[00:36:49] Jackson pt 2 maya-1: I love it.
[00:36:50] Jackson pt 2-1: And I was like, oh my god, I'm getting that right now. Lauren would have loved this tattoo. Maya, it turns out that I didn't know this at the [00:37:00] time. I got that tattoo on National Siblings Day.
[00:37:03] Jackson pt 2 maya-1: I have chills. That's crazy.
[00:37:05] Jackson pt 2-1: Isn't that amazing? So now I know too. Like National Siblings Day is one of those days where I'm like, I'm paying attention, sis.
[00:37:11] Jackson pt 2-1: What do you want? What do you want to say? What do you want to show me? So yeah it's, so in the sense of having something with me and having like her colors and things she's right here on my arm all the time.
[00:37:20] Jackson pt 2 maya-1: I love it. I love can we see it for those of you watching on
[00:37:23] Jackson pt 2-1: Yeah. For those, so it is it is this set of the planets right here. And then I had the color work added at a later time, but yeah, I love the, my, my little rainbow planet splash is one of my Lauren tattoos.
[00:37:33] Jackson pt 2 maya-1: I love it Yes, if you guys are watching on video you can see that is so cool I have a memorial tattoo for my brother as well had never gotten a tattoo in my life it was the first one and it was just an interesting thing and I actually added to it later and It was weird because I had to reschedule to, because I was adding two flowers.
[00:37:53] Jackson pt 2 maya-1: I was at, my brother was a sunflower, I'm a rose, like those were our like things. And so I wanted to add that on to [00:38:00] just like some of the script stuff I had gotten, right? I was like, I don't really love this. I want to make this a little more aesthetically beautiful. And I'm laying there with my tattoo artist and I'm like looking at the date.
[00:38:11] Jackson pt 2 maya-1: And it was May 5th, so it was 5 5, and it was the 5th year since my brother had been gone. And I was like, So there's just these numerology signs, there's these signs you heard this song I mean, it was really There were a lot of other things that happened that day, which I've shared on the show before, so I'm not gonna bore everyone, but just, I connect with you so much, because there are signs there with us, and I'll never forget, just looking at the calendar, I'm like, Oh my god, this is so weird!
[00:38:39] Jackson pt 2 maya-1: Yeah,
[00:38:40] Jackson pt 2-1: totally fit. Yeah we in our family, we call those flybys. Although sometimes they're so not subtle. We call them stomp overs because it's not even a gentle reminder. It's Hey, I'm here right now telling you this pay attention. Yeah,
[00:38:51] Jackson pt 2 maya-1: Look at me. Look at me. I'm here. Yeah. 
[00:38:54] Jackson pt 2-1: For Lauren being her Leo self, it would make sense that it's very big and obvious and unmistakably Hey sis, [00:39:00] see ya.
[00:39:01] Jackson pt 2 maya-1: Yeah, exactly. It's in your face. Yeah.
[00:39:03] Jackson pt 2-1: Exactly. She was never not.
[00:39:07] Jackson pt 2 maya-1: So I, what I think is also really just so much beautiful knowledge and just heart that you've shared so much in this episode already, Jackson, but what I'm curious to kind of switch gears just a little bit. And what I find fascinating is you talked about how your family, and again, something we talk about on the show all the time, is This type of loss really can rip you apart or really bring you together.
[00:39:29] Jackson pt 2 maya-1: And although your family went through so much, like your parents are still together to this day, right? They were able to make it through and they had your brother and. They've, we don't really move on from this, but we move forward, as you so beautifully said earlier in the episode, too.
[00:39:46] Jackson pt 2 maya-1: I'm curious, because I know your mom, and we're talking about it on this episode, created Grievewell. I'd love to know a little bit about the relationship with your parents, and like, how this evolved, and how she did, I know she's kind of this, I know you're [00:40:00] all involved in it, but she's really the spearhead of this.
[00:40:03] Jackson pt 2 maya-1: How did this all evolve? I'm so curious.
[00:40:06] Jackson pt 2-1: Yeah it's, it was one of those, I know so many folks, when they experience this loss and the grief, you want to do something with it. You don't want it to be, in, in vain. You don't want it to have, just sit with you and not, It's so we feel called to do something. I mean, look at this amazing podcast that you've got now.
[00:40:23] Jackson pt 2-1: This is you were called and you answered that call. My mom's call was to try and find and offer some new models of community grief support that had existed in some places, but weren't as widely known about. Oftentimes the community models are, you can see a one on one therapist which is great.
[00:40:42] Jackson pt 2-1: And as a and I started seeing a therapist basically after Lauren died and I've had therapists throughout my life. And I still regularly see my therapist as like a nice, it is good to have a check in for someone who helps you with your life. It's wonderful. Big pin.
[00:40:58] Jackson pt 2 maya-1: I agree. Same [00:41:00] thing here. I've been in therapy for a really long time, too, since I was a child because of my dysfunctional family, and then when this happened, forget it. But I'm like you, I don't go all the time, but it's I call it like a, like you said, check in. I love that. I call it my little tune up.
[00:41:12] Jackson pt 2 maya-1: Sometimes I just need a little tune up. I need a little help. Little help. Little check in.
[00:41:16] Jackson pt 2-1: Therapists are kind of the people who can walk in and kind of be like, Oh, this is what I'm seeing. And you're like, Oh, yeah. Ah, it's right there. And I wasn't paying. Okay. Thank you. But that's, it's a great model, but it's not always for everybody. And it's, it certainly doesn't always get people to feeling like they're seen in the same way as being in community with other grievers does.
[00:41:37] Jackson pt 2-1: But the community support model of just going to a grief group where You have, I mean, especially when I was a young person grieving, I was going to a grief group where people had lost their grandparents. And I was just like, I'm sorry, that is, your loss is meaningful, and that has clearly had an impact on your life.[00:42:00] 
[00:42:00] Jackson pt 2-1: I watched my sister get crushed in front of my house. This is, I'm in a different spot than you and I'm experiencing a different kind of grief, and you're not speaking to it, and so it can feel very, Isolating even within those grief groups, within the groups of, that support context of grief, or people who had lost parents.
[00:42:16] Jackson pt 2-1: I couldn't I didn't know what that was like in the same way. I had my parents absent, but they weren't gone. So it wasn't the same. And so Grieve Well is founded on a model of peer to peer grief support. So what they do is for people who are more fresh in their grief, they pair you with someone who is further along in their grief journey.
[00:42:37] Jackson pt 2-1: So it's, Almost like a and they try to match similar type of loss to similar type of loss. So you have somebody who's this peer who's literally been where you've been, who has walked that path and someone who just in those early stages, you can look to and say, they're still, okay they're making it.
[00:42:55] Jackson pt 2-1: And then. The grief model is about ministry of presence. It's about [00:43:00] being with somebody and that's what you have to do. It is about showing up as a peer support counselor and just being there. And there's a a wonderful motto for young chaplains who are in hospitals for the first time, where it's oftentimes we say, don't just stand there, do something.
[00:43:15] Jackson pt 2-1: And this motto is don't just do something, stand there. And so it is very much about that. idea of be present, be with that person. You might talk, you might just go for a walk. You might sit and enjoy a coffee at Starbucks. You might talk about every other part of your life and not the loss. You might just sit and cry, but that's the way to do it.
[00:43:39] Jackson pt 2-1: And people have those partners. And then eventually you, if you go through the program with your grief, peer support counselor, eventually you can potentially graduate and then become a peer support counselor yourself if you so desire to do and so then you kind of, yeah, pass That's that torch of being able to be that healing presence in someone's life is, as we know, to there's the people who you get so much support [00:44:00] potentially initially there's a really groundswell of people who are there and then it drops off a lot and you might get a couple people coming back, but people feel awkward then about, Not wanting to remind you of grief and things like that when you're still living in it every day.
[00:44:14] Jackson pt 2-1: And so to have somebody who's really present there and says Hey, I'm here. And I remember why I'm here is a big deal to have someone who just reaches out to you on anniversaries and says, Hey, I'm thinking about you today, and I'm thinking about your loved one today. That's it's huge.
[00:44:29] Jackson pt 2-1: And it makes an enormous difference. And so that's The Grievewell system. Right now they're based solely in kind of Michigan is their footprint. Really? Southeastern Michigan is where they are based and can help people with this kind of individual support. But they've also now branched into trainings for corporations and for workplaces to talk about, like, how do you support someone coming back to the workforce after having experienced loss.
[00:44:55] Jackson pt 2-1: They're starting a program at Arizona State University to bring peer counseling and [00:45:00] peer support to college age students who are often, talk about a group that has a bunch of different vulnerabilities and has experienced a lot of things, as I talked about earlier. It's providing that level of that support to those those groups.
[00:45:16] Jackson pt 2-1: So it's growing, it's spreading, and they have a bunch of online events that happen throughout the year as well that anyone can take part in. Did a a grief poetry workshop
[00:45:25] Jackson pt 2 maya-1: I love that.
[00:45:27] Jackson pt 2-1: Yeah, and it was all done by Zoom. And so we could just zoom in and write poems and then share them.
[00:45:31] Jackson pt 2-1: And it was it was really beautiful. And hearing the other people share their poems too, was just a really gorgeous moment. I highly encourage everybody to check it out., I hope that kind of model too can spread more. 'cause it really does fill a gap that we don't have in our current community support networks.
[00:45:48] Jackson pt 2 maya-1: Oh my gosh. I could not agree with you more. And I love that you're family, but I know your mom is really like the one pressing for, so thanks mom. We appreciate you. And I agree. I mean, so much of what you shared is, and again, [00:46:00] guys, you can visit grievewell. com All the information will be linked in the show notes as well.
[00:46:05] Jackson pt 2 maya-1: Their social media, their website. You can find the full offerings for all the webinars. I know you guys do free webinars. You have the one on one peer support. There's so many things. There's so much more, we could do a whole episode just talking about the things you guys offer. But I think it's so beautiful because you're right.
[00:46:19] Jackson pt 2 maya-1: We're really lacking that. Therapy is fabulous. I would not be able to sit here without my therapist and I'm sure you feel the same way, right? But there is something about connecting. It's why you guys listen to this show. It's why you're on this show, Jackson, right? It's something about this experience that only we understand.
[00:46:37] Jackson pt 2 maya-1: And I would never wish it on anyone, but we do understand it. And it's like any other kind of loss, right? Speaking to someone who's been through a similar loss to you, there's just a deeper knowledge, a deeper understanding, and there is those beautiful things like folks that will reach out on the death anniversary or the birthday of your sibling, and there's it's There's almost no words for how beautiful that relationship [00:47:00] is.
[00:47:00] Jackson pt 2 maya-1: So I think it's really wonderful. And how long ago did your mother found this organization,
[00:47:05] Jackson pt 2-1: Oh, that's a great quiz question and one that I don't. I don't feel like I have a the concrete founding date in my head because it felt like it was so part of what my mom wanted to start just a couple years after Lauren, she started to look into this because it was really to My mom was the spearhead, but my dad was almost the one who inspired it because my dad was, is not a group therapy guy, and he's not really an individual therapist.
[00:47:29] Jackson pt 2-1: Personally, he went a couple of times, but it really wasn't for him. What really helped him was finding somebody who was also a father who had lost a child and being able to pair with them and talk with them about that and talk about how you continue being a father after this death. And. So then my mom was like, this needs to exist every, this, we got to get this going.
[00:47:47] Jackson pt 2-1: This needs to exist in more places. And and then my dad had the, both of them have been then peer counselors for other folks who are now peer counselors for other folks. So it's a great it's really great. But yeah, I want to say I'm, we've, [00:48:00] it's been at least a decade, if not more yeah.
[00:48:02] Jackson pt 2-1: Probably longer than that. Let's I'm trying to think of when we've also moved so many times at various junctures. It's like, when did we move back to here and do this? That I want to say it's, it was in the late 2000s, early, early teens that, that, that grief was founded. And then has been just continuing to go along with their mission and help as many people as they can with the resources that they've got.
[00:48:26] Jackson pt 2-1: Yeah.
[00:48:28] Jackson pt 2 maya-1: it's a great organization. I love what you guys are doing. And one, one thing that we talk about a lot when we have, cause I'm sure you've listened to the show, not a lot of guys come on the show. Not a lot of guys come on the show. It's very interesting. We receive hundreds of applications, and I can count on one hand how many are men.
[00:48:45] Jackson pt 2 maya-1: So you touched on a really good point before we close out, I just wanted to call this out, how your father was grieving very differently than your mother, and the peer to peer Was better for him. And so I think it's interesting. There [00:49:00] is something about being a guy and how you grieve and more adult males is what we find, doing the show and doing the support.
[00:49:06] Jackson pt 2 maya-1: But I love that you shared that about your dad. Cause I think that is, I do think when men connect and they have that experience, I think it's helpful for everyone, but especially with men in the way they grieve, I think it's interesting that you brought that up.
[00:49:20] Jackson pt 2-1: I'm not sure that we've yet seen some societal turnover in men being allowed to understand the depths of their emotions and feel. And I think. Part of that also is how we allow men to express and feel love.
[00:49:35] Jackson pt 2-1: And especially for men, like of my dad's generation in particular, who were taught to be very stoic, to be very to not necessarily be very emotional. And my dad's not a very emotional guy. I joke that, my mom has the emotions of two people and my dad has the emotions of a tablespoon.
[00:49:49] Jackson pt 2-1: So it's just they're a little bit different scales.
[00:49:52] Jackson pt 2 maya-1: I think a lot of people will relate to that. Yes, and that's why I like to talk about this and ask this question. Yeah.
[00:49:57] Jackson pt 2-1: Yeah. Yeah. And so he needed [00:50:00] something that was going to allow him to tap into his emotions without feeling so outside of his vulnerable comfort zone that he couldn't grapple with it. But it's also that we expect men to be devoted and devoted husbands, devoted fathers devoted friends, but we don't give them the room to talk about their love in a way that is, that gives it its full range.
[00:50:23] Jackson pt 2-1: Unless like you're, a poet or something or a country music star, you're allowed to then gush about love, but you're still, there's still like these, there's still like these, Masculine confines around, don't show it somehow. And so then to grieve and to feel grief as this extension of love, as this outpouring and this loss of how to connect with someone in love.
[00:50:47] Jackson pt 2-1: It's so difficult when we don't allow men to talk about their emotions, to feel fully and to be seen fully as emotional people. And there's whole disciplines on that in [00:51:00] psychology and all sorts of things, but at least for this, for, in the context of this moment, I hope that more men allow themselves. Feel the depths of their grief to know that they don't have to just push past it, that they deserve gentleness and kindness and to be seen for their full selves too. And if they're not feeling like they can get that in a group, if they're not feeling like one on one therapy relationship is getting them there, hopefully some Walking together with someone who's been down that path will at least allow them to feel seen in ways that they might not otherwise.
[00:51:33] Jackson pt 2-1: If there are men listening out there to this and are grieving, I hope that they are able to find the place where they feel that they can be fully themselves in their full emotional depth of their grief, of their love, of their loss.
[00:51:46] Jackson pt 2 maya-1: Yeah. I love that Jackson. That's why I like to ask this question with every guy that comes on the show because there's a different perspective, but also a very common theme woven in. And I just, I think this is a great and beautiful resource. So I just want to thank you so [00:52:00] much for sharing your story, sharing Lauren with us and your family and grieve.
[00:52:04] Jackson pt 2 maya-1: Tell us where we can connect. Obviously grieve. Com guys, all of the all of the socials are in the notes as well, but Jackson, if someone wanted to connect with you, is there a particular way you prefer to be contacted?
[00:52:17] Jackson pt 2-1: sure. I do have a private Instagram, but I'm happy to, if anybody, adds me cause they've seen this. I'm happy to edge back and chat and DM me about that. I am J underscore stats, S T O T S at an Instagram. I think I have a Facebook that I never ever check anymore.
[00:52:32] Jackson pt 2-1: So Instagram is the way. And yeah, that, that's the best way to, to see as one podcast that I listen to talks about social media that I may or may not use as I'm on there.
[00:52:43] Jackson pt 2 maya-1: Absolutely. And again, you guys can visit grievewell. com to find more information, check out our show notes, Jackson, thank you again for being here. It has been a pleasure.
[00:52:51] Jackson pt 2-1: Absolutely. Thanks so much, Maya. This has been a, an amazing discussion. Thanks so much for. Everything you're doing with this podcast for the community of surviving siblings. [00:53:00] And I am looking forward to continuing to be engaged with all of the endeavors and all of the people in this community going forward.
[00:53:06] Jackson pt 2 maya-1: We would love that Jackson. Thank you so much. And thank you guys so much for listening to the surviving siblings podcast.