Heather Loses Casey To Gun Violence

[00:00:00] Mhm.
[00:00:10] Heather Ep- Maya View: Hey guys, welcome back to the surviving siblings podcast. Today I have another incredible surviving sibling with me. Her story is actually, it hits pretty close to home with me. So I'm excited to tell it today. Heather, welcome to the show.
[00:00:27] Heather Ep- Heather View: Hi.
[00:00:29] Heather Ep- Maya View: Hi. So today, Heather, you're going to tell us a little bit about.
[00:00:33] Heather Ep- Maya View: your brother Casey whom you lost 30 years ago. So it's quite a story. So Heather, tell us a little bit about, let's go back, you know, 30 plus years ago and tell us a little bit about Casey and you and your family dynamic.
[00:00:49] Heather Ep- Heather View: Sure. Um, so I am one of three. Um, I'm the baby of the family. Um, Casey was the middle child and I, we do have an older brother as well. My mom had us about two [00:01:00] years apart. So there was Donnie and then two years later she had Casey and two years after that, you know, she had me. Um, Pretty typical family. I would say my dad was military.
[00:01:10] Heather Ep- Heather View: So we kind of grew up, um, moving around a little bit. We came to Florida when I was about a year old and, um, we moved from Tampa to Jacksonville to where I'm currently at now. I moved here when I was about eight years old and, um, my dad retired when I was 14. So, um, we grew up playing sports, Casey and Donnie and, um, baseball, football.
[00:01:31] Heather Ep- Heather View: I was baseball. My dad coached our teams. So we were a pretty active family, I would say. Pretty normal up until, you know, we lost my brother.
[00:01:38] Heather Ep- Maya View: Yeah. What was your relationship? So you were the girl in the family. So what was your, yeah, you're the baby girl. I love that. So what was your relationship like with your brothers, especially Casey, of course, because we are here to tell his story, but what was your, what was your relationship like with them?
[00:01:54] Heather Ep- Heather View: So Casey was, I was, I was closest to Casey. I think just because we were closer in age. [00:02:00] He was only two years older than me. He was highly, highly protective. And if you would have asked me when, when I was growing up, I would have said over protective. You know, there were no boys. wanting to call my house or anything like that.
[00:02:12] Heather Ep- Heather View: He, he did not like that. So, um, very, very protective, but we were very, very close. Um, you know, he, my mom used to tell this story. Um, when I was born, she would say, you know, from day one, he was in your crib. We couldn't keep him out of your room. He was, you know, every morning he was trying to get in the crib with me or trying to get me out.
[00:02:33] Heather Ep- Heather View: So, you know, back then, this is the seventies now they would have the bars that would pull up and stuff like that. And she would try to keep them out and. It did not work. That child was in my, in my crib, you know, every morning and he just wanted to, he wanted to be right next to me at, you know, every step of the way.
[00:02:49] Heather Ep- Heather View: And he, it pretty much stayed like that up until, you know, until he passed. Um, but yeah, we were a very, very close, you know, me and even my oldest brother, we were all very, [00:03:00] very close growing up.
[00:03:01] Heather Ep- Maya View: Yeah. And it's so funny that you said the bar that lives. I remember that too. I mean, I'm an 80s baby, but I remember that I'm the oldest of four. Right. I remember the bar and like getting, I was so excited, like when my siblings were born because I'm the oldest. So I would go in. So I really connect with your, with your brother Casey on that.
[00:03:19] Heather Ep- Maya View: Yes. Leaning over, trying to pull it down. And that's really cute.
[00:03:23] Heather Ep- Heather View: Well, she had to put that up because he was trying to pull me out. And there was a couple of times I think he, he dropped me a little bit, but, um, yeah, we were just a very, very close, um, brother and sister pair. And, um, I remember when we started high school, he was, you know, he went to this high school next to me.
[00:03:41] Heather Ep- Heather View: Um, and well, he got kicked out. There was like a. A school for kids that, you know, if you didn't have good attendance, they'd put you over there. And so they, they sent him over there, but he still came over every day, you know, um, just to make sure it was my, I was a freshman at the time just to make sure I was okay, but he was just very [00:04:00] highly protective.
[00:04:01] Heather Ep- Heather View: And, you know, that was one of the things after he passed that I really, really missed, you know, um, just having that person there, you know, you always felt safe and protected, you know, with him around.
[00:04:12] Heather Ep- Maya View: Yeah, that's, I mean, that's a, we're gonna get into that in a little bit, but I mean, losing that kind of protection and that big brother love, it's, It's difficult. It definitely is. And I know a lot of you guys listening can relate to that as well after going through that type of loss. Tell us a little, so you kind of shared a little bit already.
[00:04:30] Heather Ep- Maya View: So Casey got into a little bit of trouble, apparently didn't go to school very often. Um, so he ended up kind of in the other high school. So did you guys, so you guys never attended the same school then together? He was in the other school or did that come together? Tell us a little bit about that. Yeah.
[00:04:47] Heather Ep- Heather View: We went to like elementary school together, um, middle school. And then when we got into high school, yeah, he got into a little trouble because he was not attending. And so when you, when you do that, they send you over, it's like an alternative type [00:05:00] school.
[00:05:00] Heather Ep- Maya View: Yeah.
[00:05:00] Heather Ep- Heather View: so they said, but it was right next door.
[00:05:02] Heather Ep- Heather View: I mean, we literally rode the same bus and everything like that to school, but he went over there and I went over there, you know? So, um, I think with Casey. He, you know, he was always in sports. Um, all of us were, and I think it was around when he got into high school, you know, his grades started to kind of slip.
[00:05:22] Heather Ep- Heather View: So I think that's kind of where, you know, he started getting into a little bit of trouble. I mean, not a super, like a bad kid or anything like that, but just typical high school type stuff, you know? And, um, once he was not, I would say actively participating in sports, it, you know, it started to go downhill a little bit from there.
[00:05:42] Heather Ep- Maya View: Yeah. I'm, I, look, I'm a big person where I, I think having kids involved in afterschool activities and, and sports, I think it's just so positive. I mean, I think it goes without saying. Some people don't feel as strongly about that, but that's my opinion and your, your brother's a perfect story with that, right?
[00:05:59] Heather Ep- Maya View: [00:06:00] Yeah. I think it keeps you, yeah, I think it keeps you engaged. It's positive. It gives you purpose and especially in your teen years when we're all just trying to figure it out. It's not an easy time.
[00:06:10] Heather Ep- Heather View: No, not at all. And you know, if you're, if you're active in sports, you don't have time to go do the other things that you're not supposed to do, you know.
[00:06:18] Heather Ep- Maya View: Exactly, exactly, exactly. I know. So, tell us a little bit about Casey around the time that he passed. So, he passed when he was 18, and we're going to get into that, but tell us what was going on in his life at that time.
[00:06:35] Heather Ep- Heather View: Well, um, you know, when my dad retired from the military, like I said, I was about 14 years old. So that put Casey at around 16 years old. Um, my dad was an alcoholic. So when he was, you know, In the military and going to work every day. He had to keep that in check a little bit, but once he retired, you know, that wasn't the case anymore.
[00:06:58] Heather Ep- Heather View: And I think that really [00:07:00] affected our whole family dynamic. You know, um, if anybody's lived with an alcoholic, they kind of know what that's like. So, um, I think that really affected Casey probably the most out of, out of us, especially, well, at that point in time. And so Casey, you know, he wasn't a bad kid by any means, but you know, I think that's when he really started going out and started hanging around, maybe like the wrong people, and getting into things he probably shouldn't have been getting into.
[00:07:26] Heather Ep- Heather View: He was a great brother, but, you know, that's when he started, you know, getting into a little bit of the drug scene and stuff like that. And, um, that, that happened up until, you know, the day he died. And it had something to do with it, to be honest with you. Oh,
[00:07:44] Heather Ep- Maya View: you on this, Heather, because my family life was not perfect as, as most of you know, from listening to my story, it was not perfect. And I do find that some of us, and I was guilty of this too, we trying to find ways to escape, [00:08:00] right? And as a teenager, it's, there's so many different things that start to look attractive, but they're maybe not the best things to do.
[00:08:06] Heather Ep- Maya View: But, you know, especially when you play. It's, it's kind of a double edged sword because when you play sports and you're involved in, like, you're really social. So sometimes you can also get involved with the wrong crowds because you are super social. That was part of my story too. And I watched that happen with my brother as well.
[00:08:21] Heather Ep- Maya View: So yes, living with someone who has, um, you know, yeah, it sounds like your father was full functioning. And then, you know, once kind of his purpose was maybe pushed to the side a little bit in retirement, it, it reared, reared its head, as I like to say. And so.
[00:08:37] Heather Ep- Heather View: he was full functioning until he wasn't, which then, you know, kind of spiraled into, you know, their marriage not doing so well anymore, there's more fighting at the home. And so, you know, I think a lot of teenagers when that's going on in the house, you just want to get out and get away from it.
[00:08:54] Heather Ep- Heather View: And sometimes you don't make the best choices on who you hang out with when you're trying to get out and get away from it. And [00:09:00] that was the case, you know, with Casey too, that's when we started noticing, you know, he was. You know, smoking a little bit pot and stuff like that. It was never anything major, but you know, he got mixed up with the wrong crowd.
[00:09:14] Heather Ep- Maya View: yeah, and yeah, absolutely. It's a, it's a bit of escapism, right? It's like, okay, this is going on at home. Like, how am I gonna deal? And as teenagers, we really don't have the skills to do that. We just don't, right? Yeah, and we're able to reflect back on that, right? But our brothers are unfortunately not able to, which is why we're here talking about this today.
[00:09:35] Heather Ep- Maya View: So Casey's kind of hanging out with the wrong kids. Doing, doing some stuff he shouldn't be doing. So tell us, was he still in high school when, when he passed?
[00:09:45] Heather Ep- Heather View: It was his final year. It was supposed to be a senior year of high school, but he, he passed in October, which was like the very beginning of that, of that year. I was a sophomore in high school at the time. So yeah, he was, he was, he was set to graduate that year. 
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[00:11:42] Heather Ep- Maya View: Wow. So Heather, tell us a little bit about that October and, and that time. Let's kind of get into that. So it's October, he's hanging out with some of the friends he shouldn't have been hanging out with. Tell us, tell us the story. Tell us what happened.
[00:11:58] Heather Ep- Heather View: So Casey had just turned [00:12:00] 18, um, like a week, maybe two weeks before, um, he, his birthday was October 8th. He passed, he got shot on the 19th. So, um, he, he had had a birthday and, so that's two weeks about after the fact, but he had rented a hotel room and he wanted, you know, he's 18, he's like, Ooh, I get to, you know, finally, you Do my own thing.
[00:12:22] Heather Ep- Heather View: And, um, he had a hotel room with a couple of friends and, um, he told them that he was going to leave and that he would be right back. And, um, they kind of asked him not to go there. Like we have everything we need here. And he was like, no, I'm going to run to the store. And the, this group of friends picked him up from that hotel.
[00:12:42] Heather Ep- Heather View: He had actually stopped by our house and my mom was cooking dinner and I was at home and he had run into the house, uh, for a minute to grab something. And, you know, my mom, that typical mom, where are you going? I got dinner. It's almost ready. And he, his response was, don't worry, mom. I'll be right back.
[00:12:57] Heather Ep- Heather View: It'll take me maybe 10, 15 minutes and I'll be [00:13:00] right back. And, you know, she was like, ah, you know, a little annoyed that he was leaving again and he left and that was the, wasn't the last time we saw him, but. When he went to the store, that's where he got shot at, um, you know, how I've watched the your story and we all talk about, you know, the call.
[00:13:15] Heather Ep- Heather View: Well, I didn't have a call. I, they actually brought him back to our home. Um, so I was the 1 that answered the door. Um, so there was a knock on the door and I answered it. And when I opened the door, 1 of the guys in the car was standing there and he said, Heather, your brother's been shot. And I was like, you know, what?
[00:13:35] Heather Ep- Heather View: And so I kind of hollered out for my mom and I told her, you know, that, you know, he had been shot and she was, what? And so we had both just kind of ran out to the car to see, you know, see him. And it wasn't what I expected. I was expecting like this maybe gory scene or something like that. And it wasn't, he was in the back seat, he was sitting up and he was still alive.
[00:13:57] Heather Ep- Heather View: So I didn't expect. I didn't [00:14:00] expect him to die. You know, I think if I knew, you know, the outcome, you know, you always wish, you know, you would have said this or that, um, in hindsight. Um, but yeah, he, he was shot, but we just didn't know exactly where he was shot at the time. Um, I called 911. And, um, hung up and went out to the car.
[00:14:22] Heather Ep- Heather View: I, I positioned myself in the front seat of the car. Cause he was in the back seat and I was holding his hands and asking them questions, you know? And, um, he was able to, to still speak to us and, um, and everything. So when, when we found out what had actually happened, where the bullet had, you know, it went right into his brain, even the physicians at the hospital didn't believe us.
[00:14:45] Heather Ep- Heather View: They had to get the ambulance drivers to confirm. Um, that he was able to do these things because it's pretty astonishing that you could, he got up and walked to the ambulance on his own. He wouldn't let them touch him. He was, you know, that's just my brother, you know, [00:15:00] he was, he was afraid as what it was and he was in shock.
[00:15:02] Heather Ep- Heather View: I think, but, um, I wish in hindsight, we would have actually asked him questions about what happened. How did this happen? But we didn't we were more focused on him and how he was doing versus. is what happened to you, you know? And that is a major regret that I have, because we never really got to find out, you know, what exactly happened to him.
[00:15:25] Heather Ep- Heather View: And I, we've talked about that, but, um, yeah. So, you know, my mom was in the car with him too, you know, asking him where he hurt, where he was in pain. And he kind of showed her, it was in the, in his mouth. And, um, But we, we fully thought, okay, this isn't that bad. If he's able to talk to us and I guess there's not blood everywhere, you know, he's going to be okay.
[00:15:50] Heather Ep- Heather View: We're going to get him to the hospital and he's going to be fine. So, um, you know, the ambulance finally arrived and they, they took him to the hospital and it's funny how, when you [00:16:00] look back in chaos. You know, my mom went with the ambulance, you know, she followed behind. My dad, I think, took a separate vehicle and he went behind.
[00:16:11] Heather Ep- Heather View: And the next thing I know, like, I'm just there at the house by myself. They weren't even thinking. They were just like, let's go. Um,
[00:16:18] Heather Ep- Maya View: I
[00:16:19] Heather Ep- Heather View: and so my mom called me about an hour later and I was sitting there and she said, and that's when she kind of broke the news to me that, how bad it was that the bullet had went into his brain.
[00:16:31] Heather Ep- Heather View: And he was in surgery, but they weren't sure if he was going to make it or not. And I was just devastated, you know. Um, so I think that's the call that I got, you know,
[00:16:44] Heather Ep- Maya View: was going to say, Heather, that was your call, but wow, what, I mean, there was so much going up to your call. Like, I don't think I've heard a story like that, but I'm sure, I'm sure I'll get messages from you guys saying, but I have a story like that too. But that's why it's important to share these different stories.
[00:16:58] Heather Ep- Maya View: I am just blown away. [00:17:00] Blown away listening to this, that Casey was able to talk. And, but you know, you're right. Hindsight is 20, 20. And you know, you guys, I would have thought the same thing, Heather. I would have sat there and been like, okay, he's talking, he got up and walked. Like, but it's, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm sure.
[00:17:19] Heather Ep- Maya View: And I have to ask you this. I'm sure it was adrenaline and just fear and just like everything pumping through his body, like survival mode, right?
[00:17:27] Heather Ep- Heather View: felt a shock.
[00:17:28] Heather Ep- Maya View: Yeah, what did the doctor
[00:17:29] Heather Ep- Heather View: were so, you know, when you thought, when you get into the ER, when they bring you in, you know, they're trying to. They, you know, they were trying to get him to lay on the table. He was so combative when they got him in there in that shock right there, but they couldn't get him to stay still and to even get an x ray to find out what was wrong with him.
[00:17:50] Heather Ep- Heather View: that they literally, they had to put him out because he was so combative. And, um, my mom was like, she was so devastated that they did that because she [00:18:00] wanted to, she wanted to be with them. I think when that, when she arrived and, um, when they put them out, that was it. He never came to again. Um, when they finally did the x ray, the bullet had went in and ricocheted nine times.
[00:18:14] Heather Ep- Heather View: So just back and forth, it never exited. So when they did the surgery, they were really just trying to take the pressure off of his brain. Um, and you know, they, they told us immediately, like, there's no chance, you know, of survival. So we decided, or my mom decided, I didn't even know that night, even when it's funny, because, um, My, my now husband, um, his brother pulled up at my house and I was sitting outside because I, I didn't want to go inside my house.
[00:18:42] Heather Ep- Heather View: There was nobody in there and he pulled up and he said he had heard about my brother and he said, get in. I'm gonna take you to the hospital. You're going with me. And so I went to the hospital that night and outside of the hospital in the ER bay, all his friends. There were so many people just waiting to see, like, [00:19:00] is he okay?
[00:19:00] Heather Ep- Heather View: Is he going to make it? And when I got up there, I thought, I still thought everything was okay because, you know, if you, if you get to a hospital and your loved one is in surgery, that told me there's hope. They wouldn't do surgery on somebody if there was no hope, right? So,
[00:19:15] Heather Ep- Maya View: that way too.
[00:19:16] Heather Ep- Heather View: right. And so my mom, she didn't want to tell me yet.
[00:19:20] Heather Ep- Heather View: You know, that's not why they were doing it. They were doing it to take the pressure off and maybe to see, but my mom had decided to donate his organs. So You know, that was part of the reason why they were doing this, but she didn't have the heart to break it to me that night. Um, I actually left the hospital.
[00:19:37] Heather Ep- Heather View: She kind of said, Hey, why don't you go home? It was probably about two o'clock in the two, three o'clock in the morning. She said, why don't you go home and get some rest and I'll send somebody to come get you and bring you back in the morning. And I said, okay, well. the next morning. So I went home that night and I spent the night with my best friend.
[00:19:52] Heather Ep- Heather View: She lives right across the street from me. And um, the next morning, my neighbor took me to the hospital and I got there and [00:20:00] as soon as I walked, I just had that feeling, you know, that it wasn't gonna be good. I don't know. Nobody had told me. I didn't know. But that drive, I don't even remember waking up that morning.
[00:20:11] Heather Ep- Heather View: It's funny how, like, you have these memories and, but there's, there's blanks there. Like, I don't remember waking up that morning and getting dressed or any of those things. I just, I do remember the ride to the hospital and I remember feeling like, you know, they're going to tell me something bad, you know?
[00:20:28] Heather Ep- Heather View: And so when I got there, my mom met me in the ICU and she kind of said, you know, he's not going to make it. He's on and, you know, this is your time to say goodbye. And it was so devastating, you know, because I had never even been in a hospital at that point, you know, no, none of my family members had been in the hospital.
[00:20:48] Heather Ep- Heather View: So it was really, really tough. And there was a nurse in the ICU and I'll never forget her, but I didn't, I didn't know how to do that. You know, when one night [00:21:00] he's fine, he's going to go have a night out with his friends to, you know, celebrate his birthday and literally the next day. You're telling that person goodbye for the last time.
[00:21:10] Heather Ep- Heather View: It was unreal, you know? Um, but I had a nurse in the ICU and she told me, she said, Heather, you know, you can spend all day in here. We're going to, nobody's going to bother you. We're going to go out, we're going to close the door and you can, you can have the whole entire day if you want it, you know, and I said, I don't, I don't know what to say, like, can you hear me?
[00:21:29] Heather Ep- Heather View: I didn't know. And she said, you know. Hearing is the last thing to go is what we found. I think he can hear you, you know, I can't prove it, but I think he can hear you. So just, just say whatever you want to say. And, um, it's funny because I brought headphones with me and, and I brought, well, back then this is the early nineties, you know, so, um, there wasn't phones and stuff like that, but I had like the little, uh, little CD player or something like that.
[00:21:59] Heather Ep- Heather View: [00:22:00] And I put on his favorite music and I put the headphones on him so he could hear it and he, they, they had done all the tests and they said, you know, that he was brain dead at the time, you know, so he shouldn't have. You shouldn't be able to really do anything, but when I put those headphones on him, and I started playing music, his, his heart rate popped up.
[00:22:20] Heather Ep- Heather View: So, it actually, yeah, so they were, we were supposed to donate his organs and so they actually had to keep them an extra day because the nurses at the nurse's station saw. That his heart rate started to go up when I started playing music. So they had to make extra sure that he was not going to, you know, that nothing had changed.
[00:22:37] Heather Ep- Heather View: But, um, it was kind of interesting because I almost took it like a sign that he was telling me, I can hear you. I'm still, you know, even though he wasn't physically there, I almost took it like as a sign that he was telling me, I hear what you're saying, you know?
[00:22:50] Heather Ep- Maya View: I believe in that, Heather. I fully believe in that. I fully believe in that. And I, you know, cause there was a moment, I don't know if I go into great [00:23:00] detail about this, but I'm going to talk about it now. So when I, cause I spent, I was alone with my brother so much. And so I, again, connect in so many ways to your story, but there was a time when he was, same thing, life support, you know, Should not be making any movement, should not be.
[00:23:16] Heather Ep- Maya View: But there was a time when I was sitting in there and I was talking to him about certain stuff and his hand grabbed mine and I will never forget that. And I had a beautiful nurse, just like you. Shout out to these nurses because they do make a difference. Like this one particular nurse, which I do talk about at length in the first season.
[00:23:38] Heather Ep- Maya View: So if you want to know about that, check out the first season. But this particular nurse, you know, she was, she let me stay. I wasn't supposed to be sleeping in there with him. She let me do that. Like they talk to you and what a gift that she said to you, you know, we think hearing is the last thing. So you wouldn't have thought to do that.
[00:23:55] Heather Ep- Maya View: Maybe if she hadn't, you never know. Right. And so I, [00:24:00] I remember this nurse and I just love some of my family, like the other nurses. This one I liked, she was. I still have her phone number and email address to this day in my brother's like file of stuff. And she worked in the evening and I remember her, like, oh, she was like, do you want to help me like wash up your brother?
[00:24:17] Heather Ep- Maya View: And because I didn't want my dad to see him a certain way and just these gifts that she gave me. And she told me to talk to him too. She said, keep talking to him, keep talking. And that's when he grabbed my hand and it really, really hurt. I thought I was losing my mind because of sleep deprivation. So I told her and I only told her, but I, I think I do talk about this in the first season, but, and she was like, no, that's, That's real.
[00:24:39] Heather Ep- Maya View: She's like, I, I know he's not here, but he's, you know, he's here. So that is just, I'm really blown away and I have a very similar story to you because same thing, Bullet went into my brother's head, ricocheted around and was, was lobbied, lodged in there. And again, I don't know if I went into that much detail about that in the first season.
[00:24:58] Heather Ep- Maya View: So again, some, [00:25:00] some more info there, but yeah, it, it. Entered through the side and ricocheted around and was stuck. They couldn't take him to surgery at all So it was straight to the life support so we could be organ donors too. So I really connect with this
[00:25:13] Heather Ep- Heather View: And that's a beautiful gift. I think,
[00:25:15] Heather Ep- Maya View: it is
[00:25:15] Heather Ep- Heather View: I think in every, I don't know if other people feel this way, but I was searching so hard for some kind of, you know, kind of bright light, you know, that this isn't just in vain. There has to be something good to come out of a tragedy. And I was only 16, but that's the way I felt.
[00:25:37] Heather Ep- Heather View: I needed something good to come out of this. And when my mom said, what do you think? I was like, absolutely. I was a hundred percent on board immediately. And, um, I actually worked in Oregon procurement, um, for a brief time, um, in the early two thousands. But, um, yeah, that was the only thing that I thought at the time that, that good, that came out of it.
[00:25:59] Heather Ep- Heather View: And, you [00:26:00] know, if, if. I'm sure you had the same thing where they send you the letter and it tells you like a basic rundown. Like they don't give you names obviously of who got what, but it gives you like a little background. You know, 56 year old woman in Miami, you know, got his heart, you know, there was an 18 year old that got one of his kidneys that had been on dialysis for years.
[00:26:18] Heather Ep- Heather View: And I thought he would have wanted that, you know, and it made me feel good that there was, There was still a piece of my brother around, you know, obviously I
[00:26:27] Heather Ep- Maya View: I think that's cool. Yeah, I think it's kind of cool. I know some people feel, have mixed emotions about it too, Heather, but for me, I felt exactly the same way. And it was a, it was wild too, because I actually, like a friend of a friend ended up knowing the person
[00:26:43] Heather Ep- Heather View: Oh, wow.
[00:26:44] Heather Ep- Maya View: one. Yeah. But because like, it was, it was an attorney and he's like, I can't disclose anything, but just know that I know.
[00:26:50] Heather Ep- Maya View: And I was like, it was again, just another trippy part of the story. Right. So it's like, again, totally cool. Totally connect with you on that. And it is, it is interesting. And I know some people that are [00:27:00] like called to go meet these people and things like that too. And that's a, that's a whole other podcast episode, but I do
[00:27:05] Heather Ep- Heather View: for sure.
[00:27:06] Heather Ep- Maya View: I think it can be healing.
[00:27:08] Heather Ep- Maya View: I do. I agree with you. I think it
[00:27:10] Heather Ep- Heather View: It made me feel, it gave me a little peace, I guess, you know, knowing our, our family suffered a great tragedy and we're suffering, but he was a gift to somebody else. You know, there was a mom that, you know, she's, she was, that got his other kidney, you know, that, you know, now, now she has the gift of life, you know, he saved a lot of people in, in his passing.
[00:27:32] Heather Ep- Heather View: So that made us feel a little better, you know, um, but yeah, going back to that nurse, um, I was so thankful because I was so scared, you know, going into that room and, you know, my mom, you know, she walked out and she let that nurse kind of guide me a little bit and she got the nurse got a little choked up.
[00:27:52] Heather Ep- Heather View: She said, it's always, I think it's harder for them when they see someone young in that room. Um, I mean, it doesn't matter the age, but I think [00:28:00] that, you know, the younger you are, the harder it is on, on the, on the staff there. So I was so thankful though, that she. She was able to kind of guide me that day.
[00:28:10] Heather Ep- Heather View: But when I left the hospital, I don't even know why, when I look back now, why I made that choice, but I never went back. I said my goodbyes and I, you know, cause he's still, you know, they didn't take him off life support until the next day, but I never went back. I just could not bring myself to go back. I said goodbye and I, and I didn't go back and I think back to that and I wonder why I didn't do that, you know, but I just, I, I take it as I just wasn't strong enough to go back and continue.
[00:28:38] Heather Ep- Heather View: Um, I couldn't see him that way, you know, cause that wasn't my brother anymore. Sometimes I wish I would have gone back, but, um, that was just the choice I made. Um, the next day when, after, you know, they, um, took him off life support, I had pretty much locked myself in my room for several days. I didn't, I did not come out.
[00:28:58] Heather Ep- Heather View: I was just, I [00:29:00] was in shock. You know, I was, like I said, I was 16 year old girl. I just, I was in total shock. And the next night my parents came into my room, um, cause I didn't know when they were going to take them off life support. I didn't, I didn't, I didn't ask. Um, and my dad brought me in, he came into my room with my mom and he was kind of giving me a, a play by play of what had happened.
[00:29:23] Heather Ep- Heather View: And I was silent. You know, and I was listening to him, but I wasn't saying a word. And I think he wanted to, he wanted me to say something back to him. And I was just, I was listening, you know, but I knew it was just bubbling inside. I was about to like blow up. Cause I hadn't actually just totally lost it yet.
[00:29:44] Heather Ep- Heather View: Um, and finally he said, it's okay. You know, you can, you can cry, you can show some emotion. It's okay. And, and I did. I jumped up out of my bed and I took off running because that's my, my flight or, uh, flight responses [00:30:00] is always to run. I'm a runner. So I took off running and I ran outside and then we had this big oak tree, um, in the front of our yard.
[00:30:09] Heather Ep- Heather View: And I started to just punch this oak tree and I was crying and my, my parents, I think were in shock. Um, and my dad just kind of ran up to me and he was like, you know, stop, stop. And I was just screaming at the top of my lungs. That was the first time I had really let it out, you know, all the pain that I had been feeling and he was just begging me to stop and he just kind of grabbed me and we fell to the ground and he was just hugging me and when I looked up.
[00:30:40] Heather Ep- Heather View: I think every neighbor was outside of their house, you know, just kind of staring, you know, and I remember seeing my best friend and her parents all standing there as a family, you know, looking on and my dad was just, you know, consoling me and hugging me and he basically said, please just, you know, go inside your house, [00:31:00] just please go away, you know, and that moment really chokes me up even still today.
[00:31:06] Heather Ep- Heather View: You know, just how raw that was. You know, I don't know if you had that moment too, where you just finally just let it all out. Um,
[00:31:17] Heather Ep- Maya View: I think, I think we all have a moment and then I think there's moments too, which I'm sure you'll get into more of those. But yeah, yeah, it was, it was similar to you in some ways, but I, um, remember, and I do talk about this in much more detail, but I remember when I had to walk away from my brother's body for the last time and he was being taken off life support and they were going to take him immediately to go.
[00:31:45] Heather Ep- Maya View: You know, harvest his organs and that we knew that was happening. And again, I felt good about that too. And he had it on his like identification card that he wanted that too. So it was, there was that plus for us too, right? It was one thing we were not going to fight about as a family. [00:32:00] So, um, but I remember being the last one in the room and my dad was dragging me out and it's interesting that it's your dad too, that you have this, my dad was dragging me out and everybody was in the hallway crying with different kind of groups and it was.
[00:32:13] Heather Ep- Maya View: My dad and we have had a very complicated relationship. And so, um, it was definitely a bonding moment. I remember just finally like releasing kind of the responsibility of being like the oldest and all of that. So I get what you're saying. It's that moment, um, where you kind of release for the first time and
[00:32:31] Heather Ep- Heather View: yes,
[00:32:31] Heather Ep- Maya View: very real.
[00:32:33] Heather Ep- Maya View: Yeah.
[00:32:34] Heather Ep- Heather View: very vivid. Like, that was and I still, you know, it was so vivid that even when I think back, I almost felt bad that. I showed that to everybody, you know, cause I, I know they were all choked up. Our neighbors were all choked up watching it. And I, I felt bad that I, I made them sad. You know, when I look back, I was like, Oh, you know, but everybody has that release.
[00:32:56] Heather Ep- Heather View: You have to, you have to let it out. I learned that, you know, that the people that [00:33:00] bottle that up over the years typically don't do so well, you know, it's important to maybe not let it out all the time like that, but you know, but you have to let it out. You know, that's, that's the way you heal,
[00:33:13] Heather Ep- Maya View: Yeah,
[00:33:14] Heather Ep- Heather View: but,
[00:33:15] Heather Ep- Maya View: And I, I think it's a really, really strong point to, um, Heather that you made about, uh, Um, and I'm not gonna be bottling it up because we've had quite a few siblings just on this show come on and say, it took me, I mean, it's been 30 years for you. And thank God you let it out. And we're going to talk about that more.
[00:33:31] Heather Ep- Maya View: But there's, there's people where it's like, it happened. They kind of suppress it, push it down, never dealt with it, and it can manifest physically, mentally, emotionally. So that release is very important. I'm really glad you said that.
[00:33:45] Heather Ep- Heather View: My oldest brother bottled it even to this day, you know, um, you can't talk to him about it. I mean, if my mom brings it up, he immediately will shut her down. I don't want to talk about it.
[00:33:56] Heather Ep- Maya View: 30 years later. Isn't that
[00:33:58] Heather Ep- Heather View: still cannot, [00:34:00] but we had different relationships and, and I get where he's coming from. Two because, um, you know, they were brothers.
[00:34:07] Heather Ep- Heather View: So that's a different relationship. You know, I think brother and sister and not one's closer than the other. They're just different, you know, but he had him and, um, Casey had some not. So their last words weren't great, you know, and. We've tried to get them to understand, like, it's okay, you know, siblings bicker and they fight with each other.
[00:34:26] Heather Ep- Heather View: It's unfortunate that those were your last words, but it didn't mean that you guys weren't closer, that you didn't love each other, you know, but I think there's a little bit of guilt there and that's a whole nother level of grief when you have that on, on top of losing, you know, a sibling as if, you know, you said something you regret later down the road.
[00:34:47] Heather Ep- Heather View: So I personally have tried in my life now to not leave people with words like that. You know, if you're in an argument or something like that, it's probably not the greatest idea to [00:35:00] leave, you know, with that being the last words you say to somebody. So
[00:35:05] Heather Ep- Maya View: Loss, significant loss like this will definitely change things like that for you.
[00:35:11] Heather Ep- Heather View: for sure.
[00:35:12] Heather Ep- Maya View: Yeah. So you have this very intense moment. I feel like I can even see you like going to the tree. Like I really envision this. You're definitely a great storyteller. And so what happens next? You know, your brother is taking off life support.
[00:35:29] Heather Ep- Maya View: You're only 16 years old, Heather. Um, do you guys have a funeral for him? Like what is, what is, Post this traumatic event look like and then obviously there's the questioning of like what happened and what happened So definitely want to get into how you dealt with all of that. Yeah.
[00:35:44] Heather Ep- Heather View: Yeah, we had a funeral for him. I don't know how many days later, but, um, we had a funeral for him and, um, you know, we, family came in from out of state. Um, it was a pretty big funeral and, we really didn't start even asking questions [00:36:00] about what had happened to him. Cause you know how that is. Like when you lose somebody, you're in such shock that.
[00:36:07] Heather Ep- Heather View: Certain things just aren't on your mind, you know, initially, you're especially like my mom and my dad, they were more focused on families coming in. We got a funeral to plan. There was a girl that went to school with Casey and her dad had, you know, he had a funeral home. And. Casey was actually buried. He had turned 18, you know, right before he passed away, but the military base, because he was so close to turning, he had just turned 18, they still allowed my parents to bury him on base.
[00:36:41] Heather Ep- Heather View: So, which I thought was really special, you know, um, my dad has since passed away. So my dad is buried with him, um, out there on the military base. But, um, There was a girl that her, that went to school with Casey and her dad owned a funeral home and they donated a casket for him and everything because you know, that's a large [00:37:00] unexpected expense.
[00:37:01] Heather Ep- Heather View: Um, you know how much funerals cost. So, um, yeah, he had called and introduced himself and said, you know, I want to do something and I want to, you know, I want to donate this, um, to, to, to Casey. And so that was really special. It's amazing how people just show up, people you don't even know you're not even close to or something.
[00:37:19] Heather Ep- Heather View: And they do such. a nice thing, you know, and those are those things that in every tragedy, there's always something good that happens and you, it's really touching to see someone just come, come out and do something. He didn't have to do that, you know. Um, but yeah, so we had the funeral and I would say it was few days after, um, his funeral.
[00:37:41] Heather Ep- Heather View: That was the first time we started going, well, what happened because, um, you know, I didn't really get into. You know, what happened to Casey, but he was in a car with four other guys. Um, they had picked him up and like I said, they went to the convenience store. The story was that they were going to, uh, buy beer.
[00:37:58] Heather Ep- Heather View: There was one guy in the [00:38:00] car that was, um, over the age of 21. I think he was 21, 22 maybe. Um, everybody else in the car was underage. Um, it was, Casey was the second oldest. He was 18. There was a two 16 year olds and a 15 year old in the car. So, um, the guy that was, um, over 21, he was at a bar, a neighborhood bar, um, just a couple days after Casey had passed, bragging that he had killed my brother.
[00:38:25] Heather Ep- Heather View: Um, and the bartender, she wasn't like good friends with my mom or anything, but she knew of my mom because they had pool tournaments there. My mom would sometimes, um, would do those. And she listened to this guy Explain what had happened and bragged about killing my brother. So she actually kicked him out of the bar and called my mom the next day and let her know.
[00:38:48] Heather Ep- Heather View: And my mom was devastated, you know, um, but my mom called the detective and let him know, and he said he would look into it and that wasn't good enough for my mom, [00:39:00] my mom, the, the bartender had his ID. She got his name and everything. And she had told my mom. That while he was bragging about, you know, taking my brother's life, he was also telling her, um, people where he worked and stuff like that.
[00:39:18] Heather Ep- Heather View: So my mom paid him a visit.
[00:39:19] Heather Ep- Maya View: your mom sounds like my kind of woman. Yeah, I
[00:39:23] Heather Ep- Heather View: this feeling that the police weren't going to do anything about it. Um, so my mom went and paid him a visit. He worked at a grocery store and he was stocking shelves. And so she just walked straight up to him and asked him and he started to cry. And and beg her not to do anything that, you know, he was just drinking and that he was just, he, it wasn't true.
[00:39:45] Heather Ep- Heather View: But the police, you know, I think that was one of the things, um, that was really difficult is that, and I'm sure other people can relate, is that if there's not a proper investigation done [00:40:00] into these cases, it leaves the families going over this forever. Yeah, I don't, I don't think you ever let go of it.
[00:40:08] Heather Ep- Heather View: Um, not a hundred percent anyways, you know, and, and I go in cycles with it. Well, I have over the years where, you know, initially I didn't really think about stuff like that. I didn't, I didn't want to go down that path and, and, and, and question it until I got maybe into my early twenties. I really started second guessing or really getting into it, but they spent a total of five hours investigating my brother's case.
[00:40:34] Heather Ep- Heather View: And that was it. They just wrapped it up, you know, um, so I think there's certain things in any investigation. If something's, there's certain red flags, they shouldn't be able to close it. They should have to at least investigate a little further. I'm not saying that every, just because they have a certain red flag, that means, you know, it was a homicide or something like that.
[00:40:58] Heather Ep- Heather View: I just think that if there are [00:41:00] certain red flags, they can't close the case immediately. They have to go out and they have to, you know, get more statements or dig a little deeper because in my brother's case, there was no gun. They never located the gun.
[00:41:13] Heather Ep- Maya View: That's crazy.
[00:41:14] Heather Ep- Heather View: So, if the, the theory is, is that he did this himself, where, well, where'd the gun go?
[00:41:20] Heather Ep- Maya View: that's impossible.
[00:41:22] Heather Ep- Heather View: Right.
[00:41:22] Heather Ep- Maya View: impossible. Yeah
[00:41:23] Heather Ep- Heather View: impossible. So, and like I said, you know, his money was missing, his wallet was gone. So, how did that happen? You know, how it, you know, so those are all signs. I'm not saying it's, 100 percent that he didn't, that he did that himself or he didn't do it himself or whatever. But if items are missing off somebody, right?
[00:41:46] Heather Ep- Heather View: Money. He had, I think six, 700 in his wallet that's gone. Um, there's no, um, weapon involved that's missing. They should have to do something more.
[00:41:57] Heather Ep- Maya View: Mm hmm.
[00:41:57] Heather Ep- Heather View: Um, it wasn't [00:42:00] until a year and a half later that the driver of the car, um, came and told me what had happened. And I still don't know if that's 100 percent the truth, you know. That's,
[00:42:13] Heather Ep- Maya View: did what he say align with what was being said at the bar by this individual, as I'll nicely call him?
[00:42:20] Heather Ep- Heather View: yeah, it did. So I'll reverse just a little bit. I never believed that what was said happened to my brother. I never believed that that was ever the case. My brother was, um, we grew up in a family that we, we went hunting, we went fishing. We had a gun case in my living room, unlocked. It was the 80s, you know, so it was just, that's just a different time.
[00:42:42] Heather Ep- Heather View: I'm not saying that that's okay, um, but it was just a different time. We were, we, we knew gun safety. We would never touch something like that. So it was, it just didn't make sense that my brother would play with a gun and accidentally shoot himself, right? That was the story that we were told. [00:43:00] Um, You know, it wasn't until maybe five years ago that I actually requested the case file from, um, the, the sheriff's department that I was like, wow, that's not what was told to me in the beginning.
[00:43:14] Heather Ep- Heather View: Because I knew one person in the car very, very, very well. I went to school with him since I was in fifth grade. And I thought, I never thought he was involved. I thought. He was scared for his life too, and that's why he didn't want to say anything, and he was very close even after my brother passed, so I never thought he had anything to do with it.
[00:43:35] Heather Ep- Heather View: I ended up dating him about three months after the fact.
[00:43:39] Heather Ep- Maya View: What another layer, layer of betrayal too, right?
[00:43:43] Heather Ep- Heather View: that has been, you know, losing my brother was the toughest. The second toughest was that, you know, um, but he was, he was around from the day my brother passed. You know, he was always around. If I went to a party or if I [00:44:00] went off with friends, he would appear, you know?
[00:44:03] Heather Ep- Heather View: And I thought he was grieving the loss of a friend. You know, my, my parents didn't feel that way about him. My, my oldest brother didn't feel that way. They thought he had something to do with it, but I thought, you guys, you don't know him, you know? He would, he's, I thought he was a victim too. And he wasn't, I don't think he was.
[00:44:23] Heather Ep- Heather View: Um, So we dated, we started dating about three months after my brother passed. And, um, my parents were very, very, very upset by that. Um, it caused a lot of conflict within our house. Um, I ended up leaving home about, uh, four months into that relationship, you know, cause I think most people will relate when I say when you lose a sibling, You're either going to get closer as a family or you're going to just get torn apart, right?
[00:44:55] Heather Ep- Maya View: say it all the time, Heather.
[00:44:56] Heather Ep- Heather View: There you go.
[00:44:57] Heather Ep- Maya View: Yep. Mm hmm.
[00:44:58] Heather Ep- Heather View: Ours got torn [00:45:00] apart. I mean, it got ripped to shreds. My parents were divorced within two years of my brother's passing. Um, we were all living in different households within the, within two years. Um, so yeah, it ripped our family to shreds. I left home. You know, um, about four months into that relationship.
[00:45:17] Heather Ep- Heather View: So maybe six months after my brother passed, I left home. My mom didn't want me to, I was 16, you know? Um, but when I left home, that's when I found out that this person wasn't a good person. He then had full access to me. Um, so one night, um, the person I was living with, she was 18 years old and she had her own house.
[00:45:39] Heather Ep- Heather View: So for a 16 year old, that was like, Ooh, that was nice. You know, um, The day y'all went out, he didn't want me to go. He wanted me to stay home and I didn't want to, but I did because he was upset that I was going to leave. And it was about two, three o'clock in the morning and I was asleep on the couch. I was in the house by myself and he knew I was home alone.
[00:45:57] Heather Ep- Heather View: And I was, [00:46:00] like I said, I was sleeping on the couch and he woke me up, he broke into the house. He woke me up and he was kneeling on the couch next to me and he said, look down. And when I did, there was a gun and it was sitting on my chest and it was pointed at my face. And I was shocked and I was totally terrified, you know, um, I didn't think that he was going to hurt me initially, but I was terrified of guns, you know, I just lost my brother too.
[00:46:26] Heather Ep- Maya View: course.
[00:46:26] Heather Ep- Heather View: Right. So I was totally shocked that he would do something like that. And I asked him to remove, um, remove it. And he just had this really weird look on his face. Um, and the only thing he would say is just touch it. Just touch it. And I thought, no, get it off. And we kind of went back and forth like that.
[00:46:48] Heather Ep- Heather View: And he leaned in and he whispered, touch it just like your brother did. And
[00:46:54] Heather Ep- Maya View: Oh, chills. Yeah.
[00:46:56] Heather Ep- Heather View: And I just had [00:47:00] this voice inside me that said, do not touch that gun. You know, whatever you do. I just had a feeling that if I did, something bad was going to happen. You know, and it was almost like it was going to be made to look like I was sad or depressed and I did it myself.
[00:47:16] Heather Ep- Heather View: I just had that, Oh, it was just such a loud, like internal voice. I was like, no. And I just looked at him and I said, do what you gotta do. And he looked at me and we, and he just locked eyes with me. It felt like an eternity, but it was probably just a matter of seconds. And then he just kind of, you know, he wasn't smiling.
[00:47:36] Heather Ep- Heather View: He wasn't, there was no, it was like, he was like soulless at that point. And then he just kind of broke and giggled, laughed, grabbed the gun off my chest, kissed me on my forehead and said, I'll call you tomorrow, left and walked out. And I went, Oh my gosh, you know, um,
[00:47:53] Heather Ep- Maya View: That is so intense, Heather. Do you feel like after, yeah, I mean, your story is, there's just so [00:48:00] much. And did you feel in that moment, like, I mean, terrified obviously, but I would think you would start thinking, Oh my God, did something similar happen with my brother? Am I starting to put some of the pieces together?
[00:48:15] Heather Ep- Maya View: Like, and maybe not in that moment, but maybe in retrospect, it was like, Oh my God.
[00:48:20] Heather Ep- Heather View: I thought, Oh my God, I was so confused. Cause this was somebody that I thought loved my brother. They were friends, loved me. It was my first real real, I was only 16. So it was my first relationship. Right.
[00:48:31] Heather Ep- Maya View: Right.
[00:48:32] Heather Ep- Heather View: So I was so confused, but when he said, touch it like your brother did. I knew what he meant, you know, or I thought I knew what he meant.
[00:48:43] Heather Ep- Heather View: And it was just chilling to me. I thought my parents were right. He did have, but then I would, you know, the next day I was just trying to, Tell myself like, no, you know, I don't know why he did that. But, um, yeah, the relationship was over [00:49:00] at that point. You know,
[00:49:01] Heather Ep- Maya View: hmm.
[00:49:02] Heather Ep- Heather View: we, we pretty much ended it there. It wasn't till about a year later.
[00:49:08] Heather Ep- Heather View: Um, I was dating my now husband who was also friends with my brother. He's a really great guy. Um, he's a little bit older than me too, but, um, I was dating him and he had an apartment and, um, we had people over, you know, just. You know, I think at that time I was almost 18, and, um, we had people over, and the driver of the vehicle walked in with some other people, um, and I was sitting on the couch, and he looked at me, and I looked at him, and I knew him, I, like, we weren't friends or nothing like that, but I had known of him.
[00:49:41] Heather Ep- Heather View: He was my age, and one of his, um, guys that came with him made up, my brother's picture was hanging on the wall, and, um, And, um, he made offhanded comment about my brother because he saw the picture and what he said was, he's lucky he did it himself [00:50:00] because he was going to get it anyway. And I was like, what?
[00:50:04] Heather Ep- Heather View: And I looked over the guy's name. Um, that was the driver of the car that night. His name was Daniel. And I looked over at him and he looked at me and we locked eyes and he looked like he was about to cry. He looked, you know, I could tell he looked like he had so much guilt. And he left within minutes of that comment being made.
[00:50:23] Heather Ep- Heather View: And the next morning he called me on the phone and I was shocked that he called me, but he said, I have something I have to get off my chest. I want to come speak to you. And I was like, okay. He was like, I don't want to stay at your house though. Cause I guess he was worried about my older brother or something like that.
[00:50:39] Heather Ep- Heather View: He said, can we just take a ride and let me talk to you? And I said, okay. I don't. It's kind of crazy that I got in the car with that person, you know, but I just, I, something inside me just said he wasn't dangerous. I wasn't afraid of him. Um, and so he picked me up and we started driving around and he [00:51:00] started to talk to me about what had happened and what he had told me, what he didn't tell me immediately, um, like what happened to my brother.
[00:51:09] Heather Ep- Heather View: He was just saying that, um, The guy's name that I dated, his name was Kevin. He said that he hated my brother, um, that they were not friends, and that, um, he had taken the gun after, you know, my brother was shot. They had busted it up into about 30 different pieces, you know, and threw it into a river. And I said, okay.
[00:51:35] Heather Ep- Heather View: I said, why did he hate my brother? He said, I don't know, but he, he could not stand your brother. They, he was, Basically pissed off at him and that's why he dated you. And I said, what? And he said, yeah, you know, your brother's death wasn't good enough for him. He knew that the, if you really wanted to get your brother, he'd have to get with his sister because he knew how protective Casey was of you.
[00:51:57] Heather Ep- Heather View: So that was his, I don't know if I cuss on here, but [00:52:00] that was his final F you basically was to get with his sister. And I was so devastated, like by that comment, you know, like I literally. I couldn't even stand to listen to it anymore, you know? And I just said, that's it, we're done. Take me back home. I don't, I don't want to know anymore.
[00:52:18] Heather Ep- Heather View: You know, I just
[00:52:19] Heather Ep- Maya View: of this car. Yeah, that was your limit. And that was a question I was going to ask you, but you've already answered it, which is
[00:52:24] Heather Ep- Heather View: there's a limit.
[00:52:25] Heather Ep- Maya View: yeah, cause I think we all have our limit in a story, but there's so many layers to your story, Heather, that it's like you, I think at that point you got the answers that you needed, but they were horrific answers, but you, I think we all know when we get the answers that we need, but for you, that was like answer overload.
[00:52:44] Heather Ep- Heather View: it was too much in hindsight. I was like, Oh, I was like this close to hearing the full story. If you would have just been strong enough to just keep going. And, but I think my guilt would just, you know, knowing that. I aided in [00:53:00] somebody getting their final revenge was just too much to bear at the moment.
[00:53:04] Heather Ep- Heather View: You know, I just, I couldn't, I couldn't listen to any more. But so he took me, he was, he was crying. I was crying. Um, really didn't feel like this particular person had anything to do with it. You could just see the remorse, you know, he ended up coming back. Um, I wasn't home when he, when he came back, but he spoke to my mom and he told my mom that Casey didn't do it himself. That the driver of
[00:53:31] Heather Ep- Maya View: we all kind of knew . Yeah,
[00:53:33] Heather Ep- Heather View: yeah, I mean, you know, the, the doctor said it, it looked like it, you know, um, couldn't tell for a hundred percent, but he thought it was possible self inflicted. So we kind of went with that, you know, um, the police didn't believe it, you know, but they said, unless one of the individuals in the car were to confess, there was really nothing they could do, you know, um, I don't know.
[00:53:57] Heather Ep- Heather View: I don't think, I think they could have at least went back [00:54:00] and talked to them, got more statements, you know.
[00:54:02] Heather Ep- Maya View: Absolutely. Heather. I went through the same experience and you know, it took me years and it was past the statute of limitations of, you know, I, people talk about this all the time, and they, they're like, there's no statute of limitations on murder. I'm like, correct. But there is statute of limitations on manslaughter and all these other laws, and there is, depending on the state that you're in, and so.
[00:54:22] Heather Ep- Maya View: That's what people don't understand is like, like, unless somebody comes forward, like you said, and it's like, this happened, and they can't find enough on an investigation. You know, time, times have changed a little bit. My brother was murdered in 2016, but it was even with all the evidence. I mean, the gun that the, that the guy that was accused of killing my brother, it matched, it was a direct match, but because there wasn't enough people to corroborate the story, cause they were all very similar, I connect with their story so deeply because it was a group of guys and they were all in on it versus.
[00:54:56] Heather Ep- Maya View: Just my brother, it's, it's, he said, she [00:55:00] said stuff and people have come again, very similar to your story. People came forward via social media. Again, it's more a current, you know, time kind of thing, but it's the same thing. At the end of the day, they weren't coming to my house. They were sending me messages.
[00:55:12] Heather Ep- Maya View: They were finding my social media profiles. It still happens to this day, Heather, and people will tell me you're right. This did happen. This is, and it's like, people are scared though, to come forward. Identify themselves or, and I get it. I totally get it. But for me personally, I, again, I just, and I think a lot of you guys listening will connect with this too, especially those of you who are like Heather and I, who did not get like the full court system, the full, but you do get the answers that you need in order to move forward.
[00:55:42] Heather Ep- Maya View: But it is, it is a tough road. It really is.
[00:55:46] Heather Ep- Heather View: And you know, do you believe the people that were involved? You know, that's, that's the other side
[00:55:52] Heather Ep- Maya View: whole other layer.
[00:55:53] Heather Ep- Heather View: how do I know that he, what he's saying, you know, if he's, he's blaming somebody else, you know, he [00:56:00] passed away. Um, in his early thirties, you know, he, they said the guilt just ate at him, you know, is what I've heard.
[00:56:08] Heather Ep- Heather View: You know, I knew somebody that was friends with him. I didn't know that person when we were younger, but I met him. He dated my best friend and he was like, Oh, wow, you're Casey's sister. And, you know, he was best friends with this guy. And he said, I don't, he never would go into, you know, your brother's case or anything or what happened, but he, he was never the same after your brother's passing.
[00:56:28] Heather Ep- Heather View: He had night terrors to the day he died. You know, and I thought, well, you know, why would you have night terrors if it was something self inflicted? Hey, he was supposed to be in the gr The funny thing was, if you read the case file compared to their stories, you know, none of them were in the car when it happened.
[00:56:49] Heather Ep- Heather View: Two of them got out and went into the store to, to buy beer. The other two got out to smoke a cigarette and left my brother in the car by himself and they don't know what happened. They didn't see it, you know, that whole [00:57:00] thing, but. That's not the case, you know, because when they told stories outside of the police department, they were all in the car.
[00:57:08] Heather Ep- Heather View: And, you know, so, I mean, none of it
[00:57:11] Heather Ep- Maya View: get it. Same thing. They corroborated their story together, but then when things were being told, it's very eerie.
[00:57:18] Heather Ep- Heather View: and then the police are like, well, what happened to the gun? And they're like, we never saw a gun. We didn't even know we had 1, but, you know, well, then where is it at? But we now know what they did with it. And my thing is that if it was, you know, If it was something my brother did, it was self inflicted, why would they get rid of the gun?
[00:57:36] Heather Ep- Heather View: That was the one thing that could prove that you guys weren't involved, right? I would never get rid of evidence that proved I didn't do something, you
[00:57:45] Heather Ep- Maya View: Almost the, almost the same type of thing happened in, in this particular story of mine too. So again, I just, I totally get it. Yeah. It just, it just doesn't add up. We're, we're, we're smart enough to know that does not add up. And people who are not guilty don't do things like [00:58:00] that. They just don't. Yeah. So,
[00:58:02] Heather Ep- Heather View: you know, even the guy the, that worked at the, the convenience store, he was the clerk, he said, They, they pulled up on the side of the store, so not in the parking lot. They kind of, they didn't go behind the store. They went to the side of it. You're not even able to do that anymore. They, they blocked it off, so you can't park to the side of the store anymore.
[00:58:19] Heather Ep- Heather View: But he said they heard, he heard arguing, you know, because where he's at in the store is right on that wall. He said he could hear arguing, and it sounded like another group of guys pulled up behind them, blocked them in, and so there wasn't just them at the store. The, the clerk says, no, another group of guys pulled in behind them.
[00:58:40] Heather Ep- Heather View: There was arguing and then he heard the shot. One of the questions that we've always wondered is, well, maybe they didn't do it because why would they bring him home? He was still alive. Why would they ever bring him home where he could tell on them? And my thing is, I don't think Casey thought he was going to pass away.
[00:58:55] Heather Ep- Heather View: And I don't think Casey would have told. You know? If somebody did that [00:59:00] to him, he might have been too afraid to tell in case he did survive. He wouldn't want them to come back and do it again. You know what I mean? I mean, I could be wrong. I could be dead wrong on the whole entire thing. I'm not trying to paint that story.
[00:59:12] Heather Ep- Heather View: I'm just saying that was our journey through it and our experiences with what we were told. Because in any story, you're going to have rumors from, it would be worse, I think, if there were social media back then. But you know how people make up stories that don't know. And I never really paid attention to that stuff.
[00:59:30] Heather Ep- Heather View: But I did pay attention to the stories that were told for people that were first hand, they were there, you know, and that's all we really had to go off of, know,
[00:59:40] Heather Ep- Maya View: I'm with you and that's kind of how I handled it too and I, it's, it's just so difficult and when things start to come out it's like weeding through it and because you're reliving it again and you're processing it and so, you know, you're 30 years into this, Heather, and you were so young, so young, you were 16 when this [01:00:00] happened, you know, there's a couple things I want to ask you.
[01:00:03] Heather Ep- Maya View: What advice do you have for, again, you're 30 years in and you're able to recollect this, like, perfectly and talk about it. And it is still, um, it's a part of your life, but in a different way, I think would be a fair way to say it. Right. And you, like you said, you don't, you don't get over it, but you know, it is something that, you know, you can move forward and bring, bring with you.
[01:00:26] Heather Ep- Maya View: But I think my first thing I would ask you is, you know, you lost your brother when you were 16. How do you think that's shaped you all these years? And how have you been able to, with these Guys coming forward and saying these different things, how have you been able to kind of release and let go, you know, of, of that pain?
[01:00:45] Heather Ep- Maya View: Because for me, that's been a journey too, right? And people ask me often too, they're like, you know, and I'm only eight years into this, right? So at this point, it's still a process. And you kind of mentioned that earlier too, that you go in cycles and I connect with that too. Sometimes I go, [01:01:00] I'll, you know, like when I, again, sitting with you talking about this, it comes up again.
[01:01:04] Heather Ep- Maya View: And I now I'm in a place where I know how to kind of release it. I'm like, I can't get stuck there. I can't get stuck in that moment anymore. I can't get stuck in the anger or the questioning, but it's normal for it to come up. So I'm curious to hear from you. Like, how did you deal with that at 16? And how have you been able to process and continue the cycles?
[01:01:24] Heather Ep- Maya View: I love how you said that over the 30 years, what's that been like for you? Kind of share that with us if you don't mind.
[01:01:30] Heather Ep- Heather View: I'll go into, I think what helped me the most and then was, I was very young, so I didn't have any life experience. I think not that, you know, losing a sibling at any age is, is hard, you know? Um, but I think it's just different when you're really, really young, because you don't have that life experience to kind of base anything off of, you know, an 18 year old is not supposed to pass away, you know?
[01:01:56] Heather Ep- Heather View: Um, so I didn't have anything. no life [01:02:00] experience to kind of guide me to let me know it's going to be okay. It's going to be hard and you're going to, you're going to struggle a lot, but it's going to be okay. But I'll, I'll tell you what I think really, really helped me the most was three weeks after my brother passed.
[01:02:16] Heather Ep- Heather View: I had this, this dream about my brother and I've never, even to this day, I've never had another dream like this. Um, but I, you know, I was, in that moment where I was kind of locking myself in my room and just kind of staying to myself and kind of crying myself to sleep at night. And, um, I got woken up out of my dream.
[01:02:38] Heather Ep- Heather View: It's the weirdest thing, but in my dream, I got woken up and there was a bright light. My room is across from the kitchen and it was like someone left the light on in the kitchen and it was shining into my face and it kind of irritated me a little bit when I woke up in my dream. I didn't know I was dreaming.
[01:02:53] Heather Ep- Heather View: And I went to go see what, you know, what the light was. And when I walked into the kitchen and I rounded the corner, there my brother was standing. [01:03:00] And he was the light. He had this beautiful, warm, glowing light surrounding him. And the funny thing was, is he was in his bathrobe that he wore as a teenager.
[01:03:10] Heather Ep- Heather View: He had a little bathrobe that he wore. I have a picture of him in this bathrobe, but he was standing there. And, um, one of the last things I actually heard my brother say while he was alive is that he didn't want to die. I knew he was afraid. So, um, And one of the regrets that I had is when I had that time in the car with him, I didn't, I didn't say I love you.
[01:03:30] Heather Ep- Heather View: You know, I was like, why didn't I at least say that? Right. So in the dream, when I saw him, I was like shocked that he was standing there. And I looked at him and I said, how is this possible? You died. And he had this smile on his face and he said, no, it's not like that. Heather, you don't die. You don't die.
[01:03:48] Heather Ep- Heather View: And I, I just looked at him and I was smiling and he was smiling and I had tears running down my face because I was so happy to see him, you know, and I said, I love you. And he used to always punch me in the arm. [01:04:00] And the next thing I knew he was standing beside me and he gave me a punch in the arm and I could feel it.
[01:04:05] Heather Ep- Heather View: And the next thing I know it, the, it's like it went black and then When it came back, we were both sitting on the couch and we were talking and I was asking him all these questions like, how did this happen? What happened to you? Who did this to you? And he just looked at me and said, I don't want you to worry about that.
[01:04:23] Heather Ep- Heather View: It doesn't matter anymore. And I said, I know, but I gotta know. I just want to know who did it. How'd this happen? And he said, listen, don't worry about it. It doesn't matter. Don't worry about that. And then the phone rang and he picked up and he said, okay, okay. And he said, Hey, I gotta go now. And he. He got up and he walked to the foyer, um, and I jumped up and I said, wait, wait, wait, and he goes, it's okay, don't worry, I'm gonna see you again, and he just looked at peace, and he looked happy, and he walked into the kitchen around the corner, and he was gone, and I ran after him, and the minute that I ran after him, I woke up, and I was in my [01:05:00] bed, tears were streaming down my face already, like I had already been crying, and, um, I don't know if other people believe in it, but I do, but I believe that was a sign, you know, that he's okay.
[01:05:10] Heather Ep- Heather View: I think he really came to me to let me know that he's okay, that he's gone from this earth, yes, but he's not gone, gone. We'll see each other again, it's just maybe, maybe not right now, but you know, that got me through. If I, I don't think I would have done as well through this journey, um, of losing a sibling had I not had that experience.
[01:05:33] Heather Ep- Heather View: And when I told my mom, because I was like, I didn't really want to tell anybody about it at first. They're going to think I'm crazy or whatever. But what
[01:05:40] Heather Ep- Maya View: they're gonna like, love it, or they're gonna think I'm nuts, or they're gonna, I totally get it. Yep.
[01:05:43] Heather Ep- Heather View: we totally lost our marbles now. But when I told, when I finally told my mom, because my mom was like my best friend, um, I could tell her anything when I told her, she started to cry and she said, I have prayed and prayed and prayed for a sign that he's okay, you know, and that's it. She said, I should have known if [01:06:00] he was going to come to anybody, it would be you, because he never liked, and it was true. He didn't like to see me hurt and sad and cried. He would, he would go crazy if somebody hurt me. So, you know, that got me through, you know, but I think other than that, um, I wanted to make my brother proud.
[01:06:18] Heather Ep- Heather View: You know, I wanted him, I wanted to live the life that he was denied. He never got the chance to get married and have babies and to live independently outside of our family home, you know, and so I wanted to try to make him proud, you know, I wanted to go to school and, and, and do well in life, you know, and, and put that energy instead of doing, going down that wrong path, because, you know, my oldest brother kind of went down that path and I went down the other path, I wasn't going to use his death as a crutch.
[01:06:51] Heather Ep- Heather View: To do bad things or, you know, and I'm not taking that if, if that's the path you went down, I get it, it's hard, it's hard to [01:07:00] lose, so there's no judgment. I get it, but I just didn't want to want to do that. You know, I didn't want my family to suffer more than it already had. So I wanted, I just wanted to make them proud.
[01:07:13] Heather Ep- Maya View: Yeah, I
[01:07:13] Heather Ep- Heather View: but you're still going to cycle.
[01:07:15] Heather Ep- Maya View: Yes, you're still gonna cycle. I love that. That's such a theme on this episode for sure. I love that. I love that. I think it just really Normalizes and helps people understand that in the beginning hearing something like that. I think it can be scary It's like oh my god But like it's you're more equipped as you go through it like you can say oh my gosh Like this is emotional or I'm thinking about this or like, you know, you and I just talking about this your story today, right?
[01:07:38] Heather Ep- Maya View: It's like, there's probably a lot coming up for you. That's normal. But 30 years into this, you're equipped to be like, okay, yes, this happened. But like, here are the gifts in this as well. And like, thank you for sharing the dream with us because people, that's a big thing that you guys always ask about, like, Hey, have you guys had a dream or have I had a dream?
[01:07:56] Heather Ep- Maya View: But I think it's also for me, I dreamed about my brother too. [01:08:00] And I think that was such a gift to Heather and, but your dream is just so vivid and
[01:08:05] Heather Ep- Heather View: oh yeah. I can recall it. Like it happened last night. It was, it was that vivid. I've never had a dream that was so vivid and so lifelike. And I, I didn't know about those dreams when I was 16. We didn't have the internet. We couldn't have another story of it. So I had no idea that that thing that that existed.
[01:08:23] Heather Ep- Heather View: So I was like, what was that? You know, but as I've gone through life and the internet, you know, I realized it's super common. Um, And that made that almost like confirmed it for me. Like, oh, wow, this is a thing. This didn't just happen to me. Like, you know, this happens to a lot of people and I love, I absolutely love hearing other people's, you know, um, stories when, um, if they've had, you know, a dream or something like that.
[01:08:49] Heather Ep- Heather View: I love those stories. I've only had one in my life, you know, that was like that. And that's how I know it was real because I've never had anything else like that since. [01:09:00] Um, Also, I'm going to put this out there too. Um, because I was so young and there was no podcast back in the early 90s, um, it was really hard to connect with anybody that, that could relate to you.
[01:09:14] Heather Ep- Heather View: And at 16, I didn't know anybody that could relate to me. However, my brother had lost a friend, um, about eight months before he passed away. Um, this person was also best friends with my now husband and, um, He had a sister that was around my age. Um, I didn't know her, but I had, I knew, I knew of her. So when my brother passed away, I can't tell you the timeline, but pretty soon after my brother passed away, she called me one day and she said, Hey, I know you don't know me.
[01:09:43] Heather Ep- Heather View: I don't know you, but I know, you know, my brother and you know, and I, I relate to what you're going through. I don't care if it's one o'clock in the morning, one o'clock in the afternoon. If you need somebody that can relate to, to you, you can call me anytime. I can come pick you up. We can go for a drive.
[01:09:59] Heather Ep- Heather View: We could [01:10:00] do whatever. I don't care, but you can call me any time. And that meant the world to me. I never ended up doing it. Um, but that, that meant the world to me that there was somebody out there that if I needed them, they They would understand. Um, and about a year after my brother passed, there was a girl in my neighborhood that lost her sister in a really tragic car accident.
[01:10:22] Heather Ep- Heather View: And I did the same thing because I didn't know her, but I had seen her around. We weren't friends or nothing like that. But I did the same thing. I thought, should I do it? Should I do it? And I remembered what it felt like when I, when I was in the car. It was done for me. And even as she never picked up the phone and she never called, I wanted her to have that peace of mind or reassurance that there was somebody out there, I know what it feels like to lose a sibling, especially young, especially instantly and tragically.
[01:10:45] Heather Ep- Heather View: And I just wanted to pay that forward because it meant the world to me. So I would, that's something I think if you know somebody that's going through it, even if you're not close to them, shoot them a message, let them know, Hey, you don't have to do it. But I'm here, you know, [01:11:00] because it's that two o'clock in the morning when you wake up and you're frantic.
[01:11:04] Heather Ep- Heather View: You may never reach out and make that phone call, but at least you have, you know, at least it's the offer's there, you know.
[01:11:10] Heather Ep- Maya View: Yeah, mean, obviously it's horrible that all of you went through that, but I love that she reached out and that
[01:11:15] Heather Ep- Heather View: Yeah,
[01:11:16] Heather Ep- Maya View: paid it forward. I love that. And I think it's just a testament to, it really doesn't matter in, in what time this happened, right? I mean, this is applicable today too. I know we have so like you said, I know we have social media today, so you can find groups, you can find the podcast, you can find, there's more books out there now, but like there, nothing is going to replace.
[01:11:36] Heather Ep- Maya View: Someone just picking up the phone or sending a message and saying, Hey, I'm here for you because you're right It is that two o'clock in the morning and you can't sleep and you're having anxiety or you're feeling anxious or you're feeling depressed or you're And fill in the blank and whatever emotion you're going through because of this loss.
[01:11:52] Heather Ep- Maya View: And it's really just amazing for someone to say, I know, I know what that, that feels like. Yeah.
[01:11:59] Heather Ep- Heather View: if you just want to [01:12:00] vent, I don't even have to say anything, you know, if you just want to vent to me, I'm here, I get it. So that was really, really special. I, I've actually talked to her, you know, just a couple years ago and I thanked her again because that was really, she didn't have to do that, you know, but when you lose a sibling, you know, you, you get it.
[01:12:20] Heather Ep- Heather View: You understand that pain and that, that, that process and that, that process is tough, especially when you're young. You know. My friends, they were, they, they surrounded me for, and they, not that they just totally left me after, but about a month into it, three weeks to a month, you know, they're, they're going back to, and that's true for everybody, but you're going back into your own life.
[01:12:41] Heather Ep- Heather View: You know,
[01:12:41] Heather Ep- Maya View: you're in high school too, it's like you're back to parties and friends and extracurriculars
[01:12:47] Heather Ep- Heather View: the boy that likes you and you know, where you're going to hang out on Friday night. And I was, that was when the shock was just starting to wear off that this is real life. He's not coming back. [01:13:00] And so I was going down that deep, dark road. They didn't understand, they couldn't relate to me no more.
[01:13:05] Heather Ep- Heather View: They're like, they wanted me to snap back, you know, some of them. And they didn't, they couldn't understand why I wasn't. Um, it was hard for, for me, but I'm sure it was hard to be a friend to me. You know, how do you, how do you consult somebody that way when you're young and you don't know how to consult somebody?
[01:13:22] Heather Ep- Heather View: So I didn't never, never held it against my friends. They did the best they could with what they could, you know? So, but it's, it's, it's, it's hard when you're young because. You don't have that mindset, and your friends don't have that mindset either. You know, how can they, you know, you can't expect them to.
[01:13:40] Heather Ep- Heather View: And I just want, if there's a, if there's somebody young out there that's going through losing, you know, your sibling, um, you're never going to get over it. It's not going to happen. You don't get over things like that. You go through it. You'll go through it for the rest of your life. You know, you're going to miss that part, your, your sibling forever.
[01:13:59] Heather Ep- Heather View: I'm 46 [01:14:00] now, you know. Um, I think about, my husband asked me recently, he's asked me this several times honestly, how often do you think you think about your sibling? About, you know, about Casey and I? Every day. I think about Casey every day. My time's usually in the morning on my way to work, but I always think about him, you know.
[01:14:15] Heather Ep- Heather View: I make these little, I have a charm that I have, it hangs in my rear view mirror, and it's a heart I made out of resin, and it has his hair in there, and it, it blossoms into a flower. You know, I think about my brother every day. So you don't ever get over it. But you will get through it, you know, and there are some really hard times ahead, but for me, it was, I wanted to live the life that he was denying.
[01:14:37] Heather Ep- Heather View: I wanted to make him proud, you know, your family, you guys may get closer and bond and, and that's great, but your family can also get ripped apart, but you will also get through that too, you know, mom, me and my mom were, you know, We're all close. Me, my mom and my, my brother are, we came back together, you know.
[01:14:58] Heather Ep- Heather View: Um, but initially, you know, that [01:15:00] it's hard on a family. Most, I would say, what is it over half end up divorcing after the loss of a child,
[01:15:07] Heather Ep- Maya View: That's absolutely right.
[01:15:09] Heather Ep- Heather View: you know? Um, so it's very possible that that happens too, but you, you do get through it, you know?
[01:15:15] Heather Ep- Maya View: I agree. And I love that you talked about the fact that, because I have this thing too, like where my family was kind of ripped apart. And then some aspects of my family, we've come together and become closer. Some are not there yet, but I'm hopeful for that. And I think you're a great example of that, Heather.
[01:15:29] Heather Ep- Maya View: And this is, this is so much to unpack. And I just appreciate you coming on here and being so vulnerable and sharing and, um, Like, I knew when we first connected that we had what in common, but gosh, we have a lot in common with our story . So it's, it's a lot. But I know that your story's gonna be helpful to everyone, but especially people like us who have, you know, an un unsolved story.
[01:15:53] Heather Ep- Maya View: Um, if you've lost a sibling young, like there's so many aspects of your story that I think people will connect with. Heather, [01:16:00] where are you comfortable, um, with people reaching out to you if they. They want to chat or, um, have any feedback for you because sometimes people do if they connect. Yeah. Are you on social?
[01:16:09] Heather Ep- Maya View: Where, where's best to connect with
[01:16:10] Heather Ep- Heather View: um, you can connect with me, I'm on TikTok, um, I'm on Instagram, and, and I do have a Facebook.
[01:16:17] Heather Ep- Maya View: perfect. What's your handle, Heather? We'll put it in the show notes too.
[01:16:20] Heather Ep- Heather View: It's Heather Lee, L E I G H, um, on Instagram, it's, I'm on, uh, TikTok, I'm Heather Lee, 1977, um, on Instagram, I'm Heather Lee as well, so you can connect with me there.
[01:16:36] Heather Ep- Maya View: Perfect. We'll put it in the show notes. Heather, thank you again for sharing your story and thank you for sharing Casey's story with us. We really appreciate it.
[01:16:43] Heather Ep- Heather View: thank you for having me. It was nice to meet you too.
[01:16:45] Heather Ep- Maya View: Absolutely. And thank you guys so much for listening to the Surviving Siblings podcast. 
[01:16:50] [01:17:00] Mhm.