Finding Hope After Multiple Losses

0:00:06 - Maya

Welcome to the Surviving Siblings podcast. I'm your host, maya Roffler. As a surviving sibling myself, I knew that I wanted to share my story, my brother's story. I lost my brother to a homicide in November 2016. And after going through this experience, I knew that I wanted to share my story and his story. And now it's your turn to share your stories. Welcome back to the Surviving Siblings podcast. Today, I have, of course, another surviving sibling with me, and her name is Angie Angie, welcome to the show. 

0:00:46 - Angie

Hi, thank you for having me. 

0:00:49 - Maya

I'm really excited about your story, angie, because it's unique. I've never told a story about this kind of loss before with a sibling. But you've also experienced a lot of loss in your life, so I think a lot of our listeners and watchers will connect with your story. So to kind of take us to maybe the beginning, or to paint the beautiful image of your brother, seth, that you tragically lost, can you tell us a little bit about Seth, your brother and your relationship and a little bit about your family background? 

0:01:21 - Angie

Yeah for sure. Well, so my brother, seth, was six years younger than me. So kind of our family dynamic was my sister was three years older than me, so my sister Marcy, and then there was me, and then Seth came along and he was six years younger. And so, just growing up, seth was just, he was just a funny kid. He loved everything sports, you know, his favorite was Bo Jackson, michael Jordan, he loved just collecting all the baseball cards. 

And we grew up in a very small town in Nebraska and he was just kind of a quiet kid, you know, and he just grew to be um, very tall, um, my brother was six, five and uh, when my, I think it was probably, well, I was about 18. It was right after I had graduated high school, um, my parents divorced and so my brother would have then been about 12. And so, you know, my parents divorced. So then my, you know, Seth was kind of going back and forth. I had graduated high school, my sister was already out of the house, right, and so we basically Seth was going back and forth to my parents' house and, um, you know, he just he kind of had a different lifestyle, and then I ended up moving out and, you know, started to build my life. 

And then so my sister and I both we kind of missed a lot of his childhood, high school, like being right there then and there because we were a little bit older than he was, um, and then my mom and dad, they had both remarried and within it my mom had another child, my brother Nathan, so my half brother Nathan, and he's actually 20 years younger than me. So, you know, it's just, it's one of those family dynamics. And then when my dad remarried, he, his wife, had other children. So then there were other people, you know, coming in and being involved. So, yeah, it was, I mean we just you know nothing extraordinary. Seth was just such a quiet young kid and I mean he just he really played video games and he, I don't know, he just loved life. He was not a tough kid at all. 

0:03:48 - Maya

Yeah, he kind of had like the younger child vibe is kind of what I feel for him and I relate because it's me, and then I have a sister and then it was my brother, so my brother was the third in our family too, so I can connect with that. But I think it's interesting that you know, basically both of you and your sister you guys were out of the house, I mean you had moved on, and so you stole the thoughts right out of my head as I was listening to you he's living this very different life than you guys. There's two different homes, there's two different you know places to go, and then there's a yours, mine and ours child child situation. So it's, it's a different dynamic childhood situation. 

0:04:25 - Angie

So it's, it's a different dynamic, definitely. 

Yes, you know, and it was um, I think I I don't know why and I'm not a very controlling person, but I know that afterwards, after my parents got divorced, I was um, I kind of took on a little bit of a motherly role towards my brother Seth, and when I remember, when he graduated, so my parents when they did divorce, they did not get along. 

So there was that dynamic as well, you know, and it was hard for you know, gatherings and things like that. So when Seth graduated high school, then I was married to my husband, jack, and at that time, and then you know, my parents couldn't decide well, who's going to have the graduation party, for example? And so, you know, I took it upon myself, jack and I will have your graduation party. So we hosted it. So I was like I'm going to take care of my brother this way and you know, that kind of continued on as the future grew. The future grew, I just kind of I would do the things that I think my parents did, just because they didn't know how to. You know, they didn't know how to do that stuff together. 

0:05:31 - Maya

Right, yeah, another thing I can deeply relate to you on, angie, and I think it is something that happens with the older children when there's younger. You know, I have a 10 year age gap between my youngest sister and I and I definitely did a lot of those things for her as well, and I think, especially when your parents are, because she had a different life than us, to the three of us and then her, and even though we're whole siblings, there was just an age gap and that's really it creates a different dynamic and you do become like mini mom, as I like to call it yeah, exactly. 

So you and Seth obviously had a great relationship. Tell us a little bit about, as we're leading up to like, what his life was like, as we're leading up to his diagnosis, because today we are talking about brain cancer and this is something I've never talked about on a show before and I think sharing different types of loss on this show is so important. So again, thanks for sharing this with us and I am curious to kind of learn about Seth as an adult and kind of what things were like. And then obviously we'll go into his diagnosis and you know his battle with cancer. 

0:06:38 - Angie

Yeah, I'm always ready to share and make awareness known around any cancer diagnosis, but brain cancer for sure. So, seth, actually, he went to college and he was living. He did like the six to seven year college plan, I think it was. But so after he graduated, my husband, jack and I, we lived on a farm and we were not farmers by any means, but we lived on his family farm and it was his grandparents. And so within this farm there was a small little house, and so, after my brother had graduated college and just to get on his feet and get going in life, he moved into the little house, because the little house was empty. So we sat, we had the big house, he had the little house and so, um, you know, seth was working at a bicycle shop and he so bike masters here in Nebraska, and so he was just, um, trying to find his way. You know he didn't have, um, he was not dating anyone at the time. He started kind of talking to a girl as he after he graduated college and so, um, this is when it kind of all began. You know it was he lived with. He moved in in August of what would have been 2004. Um, he moved into um, the little house and it was wonderful having Seth there. You know, we had my daughter Gracie she was probably about two-ish at the time and he would always just come over and we would have dinner together. He would come over, we would play video games together, like Guitar Hero, we just love stuff like that. So and he just he worked hard, you know, and you know it leads us up to, you know, his, his diagnosis. 

You know I remember exactly when it was. It was October 14th 2004. My husband, jack, and I were walking into a wedding reception and Jack had received a phone call and he's like you just go ahead and go in and I will take this call real quick. So I went in there and he comes in and he's like we need to go and I said okay, and he's like Seth had a grand mal seizure at work. And we received the phone call from one of Seth's best friends that he worked with. And then also this guy, ryan, was one of Seth's best friends that he had went to high school and school with and, as well, my husband Jack was on the volunteer fire department in our community and so he, ryan, was also on the volunteer fire department in our community. And so he, ryan, was also on the volunteer fire department with Jack. So you know there's a lot of dynamic, you know things in the mix there. 

But so we left. He said I don't know what's going on. Ryan just said he found Seth having a grand mal seizure at work. You know, seth had never had any issues prior to this of anything. 

And so we went, you know, and as we went along the way, I didn't know if I should call my parents. 

I didn't know, and you know this was 2004 or, yeah, 2004. And so you know, cell phones weren't like everyone didn't have them, you know, like they did before they most people had, like Jack had one, but like my parents didn't have them. So I didn't know if I should call them or just wait till we get to the hospital. So we waited. So we got there and I was like, okay, well, I better call my parents, you know. And luckily I caught both of them at home and and I can't remember exactly if my mom had made it there by then, I think she had and the doctors came in and they said well, we know exactly what has caused this seizure. And he's like you have a brain tumor and I just remember, like thinking to myself, what you know, like I, I had never at that moment really known anyone and I didn't know. I mean, you hear brain tumor and you hear everything is just that's just not good, you know. 

So, um, it was. It was pretty just startling and traumatic at that moment for us, you know. And then my dad finally got there and you know, really the the goal and the steps going forward for the next hours to the next few days were just to get seizures under control and then go from there. 

0:11:10 - Maya

So, angie, explain to us what that type of seizure is, because I've had friends or I've known people that experience seizures, but I don't know a whole lot about it, and so I think that'd be really informative. Can you explain the type of seizure that he had, so we understand? 

0:11:26 - Angie

Yeah for sure. So a grand mal seizure is when your whole body, so the tumor was pushing on a part of his nervous system. So it, basically your whole body, convulses and you know your eyes are rolling back in your head and you're very rigid and, um, your muscles are tight and you know. So the first thing you, a person, should do if you see that is ever, um, you know, roll a person on their side so they don't choke on their tongue. So you know it's very, I mean, grand mal seizures are not as common as, just like, mini seizures. You know Seth would have mini seizures throughout the time as well. 

0:12:12 - Maya

I feel like that's what is portrayed often in like movies, right, where it's like the extreme, where you're, you know, lay them on. You know this is we taught this in school too Like, if any, if this happens to anyone, lay them on their side. They used to tell us like put a pencil in their mouth or something. But yeah, right, right. So like it was interesting because I've never really known anybody that has those types of seizures. So thanks for sharing that with us. But when, like in school, I knew some kids that had seizures, it was more like what you were describing, when it was the more minor ones, where they kind of just stop and it's like overwhelming. But I think this is something we definitely should bring awareness to, of course, and I wanted to ask you something as well Prior to this, like he's just a normal kid out of college figuring out life like all of us do after college, and there was nothing, there was no indication prior to this. He just had this major seizure and then, I'm assuming, they did scans and everything in the hospital and this is how they found out that he has this tumor. 

We hope you're enjoying this incredible episode of the Surviving Siblings podcast. I'm your host, maya Roffler. We'll be back in just a minute after hearing from our incredible sponsor. Are you feeling lost in your grief journey, perhaps even stuck? As a surviving sibling? I, too, have felt lost, stuck, confused, angry. Well, fill in the blank, I've felt so many emotions along my grief journey. I'm sure you know exactly what I'm talking about too. Along the way, I found that what I needed was answers to all of my unanswered questions, validation, permission to feel everything that I was feeling at different times, and ultimately, I needed guidance. That's why I created the Grief Guide for Surviving Siblings. This is a 23-page guide that guides you, the surviving sibling, along your grief journey, written and created by a surviving sibling for surviving siblings. Click the link in the show notes to get your copy, or visit thesurvivingsiblingscom, where you can also find more show information, merchandise for surviving siblings like you, and more resources and support. 

0:14:36 - Angie

So, yeah, he had his um, he had an MRI, well, initially just a CAT scan, you know, in the ER and um, that's where they saw the tumor, and so of course this led to the you know in the ER and that's where they saw the tumor, and so of course this led to the you know going forward that we don't know what, this is for sure You're going to have to have an MRI, and you know, we, you know it just kind of moved slowly but quickly, I guess you could say. You know, in the cancer world everything is like hurry up and wait all the time. So, um, yeah, we, we didn't know what type of tumor it was, we didn't know anything. But again, that was just kind of one of the roles where, um, I again, my parents I was kind of surprised by this, but they both kind of left the hospital that night and I remember, looking at my husband, jack, and I was just like wait, seth is all alone, like he can't stay here alone. And so I said, and I think at the same time, jack and I kind of were like yeah, yeah, no, we, we got to um, you'll stay here. And I was dressed, you know, in dress clothes still from the wedding reception. Jack's like I will go home and get you some comfy clothes, bring him back to the hospital, you know. And then I ended up staying with Seth and then, um, he was in the hospital for about the week, about a week, until they got his seizures under control. And then, um, I went and picked him up from the hospital and he came home with us and he stayed with us and, um, you know, because I was just kind of like that scared mama figure that I was like, oh, my goodness, you know. 

And so then, you know, then, just moving forward, it was just um meeting with his primary doctor, and one of the things too at this point was Seth did not have health insurance. So our battle with that was also big, you know, and being in an ER and everything, and we knew this mountain that we were going to have to climb was going to be financially extremely burdensome for Seth. And so we did everything we could, you know, as a family unit. We tried, we did fundraisers, I worked endlessly with everybody at the hospital, like the social workers, the care teams, the financial teams, just to try to get everything lessened for him, his financial bills. And there's. I will tell everybody. If you're ever in this position, fight, fight, fight for financial freedom for your loved one, because there are so many programs within the hospital that they don't tell you outright. You have to ask and you have to dig for those. So it was very helpful. 

0:17:21 - Maya

Thank you for sharing that, angie. Yeah, I can't even imagine going through that, because you know we already I mean we all know being healthy. Knock on wood, you know individuals having health care, either through your employer or if you're self-employed and like it's expensive just to have it, and so there's a lot of us out here who don't have health insurance. And then if something like this happens, I love your advice, though, just to fight, and of course they're not going to be like sure, let's offer a solution for you, because why would we do that? Right? Oh my gosh. Yeah, and I mean just just out of the gate. He's in the hospital for a week and, like you said, you knew you had a mountain like Mount Everest to climb. So you know, as you guys are, he's coming home. 

As you guys are going through this experience, what did you start to find out? You said it very well earlier it's a lot of hurry up and wait. And when did you guys start to understand the diagnosis? Or did they give you information like was he going to recover? Was he not going to recover? How did this happen? Like all of those questions that so many of I'm sure you guys have in your own story, but of course in your story as well. 

0:18:37 - Angie

Yeah, we really. Just, it went like I said, a hurry up and wait. It actually went fairly quickly. In Seth's case, they knew that this tumor was creating an issue, obviously, and so they did an MRI, they mapped it out. He had surgery, brain surgery, which they call craniotomy. He had that the end of August and so, remember, this had happened initially August 14th. Um, at the end of August he had his craniotomy, his first craniotomy, and what that entailed was they, basically they cut you from ear to ear like a little rainbow over your head. He and they took out his brain tumor. And so at that time, um, why he's still open? 

Actually, they actually test that um, just to see what kind of cancer it is, if it is cancer, if it's benign, and his was cancer. Um, it was an astrocytoma and there's so many different types of brain tumors out there. Um, cess was graded. They grade them in brain tumors whereas, like, a lot of cancers are stages. Um, ces was graded as a grade one brain tumors are graded. And so, um he, at this point in time, they were kind of just like, well, we don't have to do chemo, radiation. We think we pretty much got it all and he, he recovered extremely, extremely well. I mean he had 45, 30 to 45 staples across his head. He came home within a few days. I mean, he was he, seth was an exercise guy and he ate very healthy anyways, so this was not for his recovery. I think that was very helpful. 

So, um, you know, life just went on. And then, you know, at this time he is basically, um, he's started dating a gal. Um, we become pregnant with my son. You know, life is just moving along. Seth is not having seizures anymore, he's not having problems. It was almost just kind of like this blip on our radar Right and um, you know. Then you know, fast forward a little bit, um 2005,. Um, I, we became pregnant. We had our son, garrett, in 2005. Um, and everything was still going good. Then my brother was, he met his wife and they were dating heavily. They were still living on the farm in the little house. Um, and then we had Garrett, our son, and, like I said, um, and then we had Garrett, our son, and, like I said, in 2005,. And then, you know, unfortunately, um, our son, garrett died, um in 2006. And so, uh, that was a very traumatic time for our family. Um, obviously, my son was one year old when he died. 

0:21:40 - Maya

And how did you lose your son Angie? I think that's again. This is a big part of your story, is you know? Yes, you lost your brother and this was a lot, but you have a lot of losses, it's a multi-loss story, for sure. 

0:21:56 - Angie

And so how did you lose your son? How did he pass? Our son, garrett, died in his sleep. He was one years old and what we had come to find out is that he had a rare heart defect that we did not know he had and it's basically it's a very long name, it's like ectopic origin of the right coronary artery. Basically, his right coronary artery was kinked and you know, you don't know a child or a person would have this unless you know, because it sudden. It always causes sudden death, and sudden death happens either in extreme rest or extreme activity, and Garrett was sleeping. 

So, yeah, so that was probably, you know, our daughter was four then at the time. Probably, you know, our daughter was four then at the time, and, like I said, we were just all just really trying to survive life. You know, we had had Cess cancer diagnosis. We felt like, okay, we made it through that, right, we have a pass of having bad things happen to us. Well, yeah, that is not how it goes. And, uh, then Garrett dies and then, you know, after one year, so in 2007, the fall of 2007, um, you know, we had, we had survived the one year of our son being gone and it was very hard. But then, september, my brother and his wife Joey, it was very hard. But then, september, my brother and his wife Joey, they got married, and so that was amazing. 

And then, right after they got married, so I started having issues again, started having major headaches, um, just just some issues like that. And so he went and got an MRI again, you know, and sure enough the brain tumor had come back, had grown back, and so this was just weeks after he got married. So we were just like what, what, what, you know? And again it was end of September. They went in, they did brain surgery again, another craniotomy for Seth, and again the same thing. 

They tested his tissue for everything. It came back as a grade one, same as before. This did not warrant chemo or radiation or anything. They don't start really wanting you to do any of that unless it comes back as a grade three or four. And so he was a grade one again and we thought, okay, so same thing, stitches. He recovered fairly well, it's a little bit, I think a little bit slower this time, you know, and he had his wife, joey, um, with them. They were still living on the farm with us, um, in the little house, and you know she took wonderful care of him and, um, you know, and it was good because of the everything that we had gone through with our son. You know I didn't feel the pressure of being there for my brother, as much you know. 

But we were constantly together, you know, and you know, like I said before, things don't stop at just one, two, three, that same about. Well, when Seth and Joey got married, you know, my husband Jack was having some issues with his eye and, um, just, you know, not feeling the best. And in the end of October, there that same year, 2007,. Um, my husband Jack was diagnosed with cancer. He was diagnosed with ocular melanoma, so he had a tumor in his eye. And again, this was, this was the biggest punch, because I was just like we survived living without our son for one year. You know, we have fought endlessly for my brother to survive and live. And now, this, you know, I was, I was pissed. And now this, you know, I was, I was pissed, I was heartbroken, and I, you know, and again, you know, my daughter is now, you know, gracie's, five at the time. 

Um, and I'm just like, how much more can we take? Well, you know, unfortunately, jack's cancer did not um, his was, you know, his was, you know his was pretty bad. His was stage four terminal cancer. His had spread throughout his body and it was, it had spread to his brain. So, again, we were fighting with somebody that had brain tumors, but his were different, you know, his were metastasized from his ocular melanoma, so, um, so Jack ended up having to do full brain radiation and, um, chemo. And you know, during this whole time, you know, I think Seth was just kind of like how did I get so lucky? You know, like, how did how am I just still this and this? You know, and I know he struggled with that just a little bit, but watching your husband. 

0:27:16 - Maya

He was like me. What a, what a beautiful brother. 

0:27:20 - Angie

Yeah, yeah, you know, it really was. And he, he just did everything he could to learn and to help take care of things along the acreage and all that and um, Jack ended up battling for 16 months. Um, so he was diagnosed at the end of October 2007, and he lost his battle with cancer February. It'll actually be February 8th, 2009. So, coming up this week, um, as we record um, so he's been gone, it'll be 15 years Um, this coming Thursday. 

0:27:55 - Maya

Oh, big year. Wow, angie, oh my gosh, yeah, yeah. 

0:27:59 - Angie

Yeah. So after you know, after um Jack died I've I've told this story many of times but um Seth and Joey, they they took Gracie and I, my daughter, they drove us to the funeral for Jack's funeral. And we were leaving the church and I just remember Seth was in the front seat driving and Joey was in the passenger seat and Gracie and I were in the back seat, and he just turned around and looked at me and said it's okay, sissy, he's like, I'm here, I'm going to take care of you. It's going to be okay, you know, and I I remember him, I vividly see his face looking at me and you know, and I just I felt this peace, like I'm it's going to be okay, angie, it's going to be okay. You know, you don't know how, you don't know what, but like those, people in your life which you know. 

0:28:52 - Maya

That's why we talk about siblings here. They have that power over us. I think that's really beautiful. It's like I can like I don't even know what your brother looks like, but I can like imagine, in looking at you like that I can feel that I know what that's like. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

0:29:06 - Angie

Yeah, so it was just, it was um, it was all just hard. You know, I I don't have I still don't have exact words for it, you know. But then you know we moved forward. February 8th is when Jack died, you know we get through February and then in the beginning of March-ish, um, seth started having issues again. He kind of kept it very quiet from some of us because of just everything that had transpired with Jack dying and with Garrett dying, and it was just. But anyways, his tumor grew back. He did an MRI, his tumor grew back. 

So Seth had his third craniotomy on March 13th of 2009. And this time it came back with a vengeance a little bit. So he was going to need chemo and radiation, so they removed what they could from the tumor. And then at that time his wife and Joey you know they were still living on the farm, but then they stayed at her parents' house while Seth recovered, just because they were closer to the hospital. Joey needed just some help with them because Seth did not bounce back as quickly this time because the tumor was stronger and bigger, I guess, and so they did not come back bigger, I guess, and um, so they did not come back. 

And um, then it was about April 4th Um, seth had another grand mal, seizure, um, and this ultimately put him into a coma. And um, after doing the MRI, they said that even after the surgery that he had just short of a month ago, the tumor had just tripled in size and came back crazily. So, seth, you know, we knew that Seth's time was going to be very short with us and he ended up losing this cancer battle, after battling it for five years, on April 7th 2009. So, exactly two months after, my husband had died. 

That's a lot, angie. Yeah, it is a lot, it is a lot. And at this point in time I had lost hope and everything and I didn't know where to turn. I couldn't turn to my family. None of us could. I mean, we had all, collectively, lost somebody, like my parents had lost a son, I'd lost a sibling, my siblings had lost siblings, but then they had just lost their brother-in-law and their nephew. I mean, you know, my parents had lost their grandson, their son-in-law. I mean we were all grieving the same people, but in different forms, and we couldn't turn to each other for comfort. And it was. I was so alone, you know, because I had friends. I did, but even my friends, I've said we had no clue what to do. You know, we had no clue what to do for you or your family and, I think, as a community, nobody. 

0:32:08 - Maya

Well, if you haven't been through it as we always say right, it's very difficult to understand it. And you, your story is filled with, unfortunately, so much loss, Angie, but it's. It's an interesting story too, because it's like you guys had these really high highs and then it was followed by these eyes and then it was followed by these it's. I assume it would just be completely jarring, you know, to go through that because you know you have a wedding and then this happens, and then you have, you know, this moment, and then this happens, you know, and you think your brother, your brother's like OK, I feel good, he's going to be here, and then he's gone two months later, like that is a lot to go through. And so I, you know, when you were saying earlier that you were just angry, and you know, and I'm just trying to survive a um, but I will say, you know, the biggest thing was my daughter, gracie. 

0:33:19 - Angie

You know, she was the one that made me get up every day, because I had promised from the get-go that I was not going to let her or have her live this crappy life. You know, I had choices. We all have choices and I tell everybody that we have choices. We can either, a choose to be a crappy parent and not be there, not show up, lay in bed all day and do the woe is me party, or, b we can get up and we can just put on our big girl pants and try as hard as we can. Will we be perfect? Absolutely not. Will we make mistakes Always? But we have the choice to show up and I chose to show up and I'm so thankful I did, because my daughter is beautiful and she's graduating from college this year. So I mean, look how far we've come, and it's never, never been easy, never in a million years. And the time it's taken to get to where we are today has been just extraordinary really. I don't, you know. I don't know. 

0:34:26 - Maya

I mean, how else could you describe it? I mean, that's so intense. I'm sure your bond with your daughter is quite intense, though, because going through so much loss together and going through so much together, I can't imagine that it doesn't bond you and I, you know, I often say on the show and it's so interesting because everybody that comes on it's like either tears you apart or it brings you together, because it's kind of you guys against the world. 

0:34:52 - Angie

Exactly exactly, you know, and I've I've always, yeah, I feel like even with my other siblings, we've all kind of I feel like we've done really well just being there for each other, you know, and but the, the bond, like you said, is just it's there with you know, gracie, and then, like with my nieces and my nephew, you know they everybody has just a little bit closer relationship and, um, you know, we just we all just remember and laugh about Seth and about Jack and you know, and Garrett was so little but you know he didn't get a full life, he got one year of life. But you know, we just we talk and honor these boys like no other, you know. 

0:35:40 - Maya

Yeah, I think that's beautiful and I really love what you said, too, about showing up, you know, because it's really amazing in our, in our group, on TikTok, on lives, wherever the moms you know that are like I just lost my brother, I just lost my sister, I just lost multiple people, like you, angie, and they're like, you know, if it wasn't for my daughter, if it wasn't for my son, if it wasn't for my kids, and I think I think it is a choice, like you said, it is a choice and it doesn't mean that I think it is a choice. 

Like you said, it is a choice and it doesn't mean that I think sometimes, when people hear this so don't misunderstand me on this, guys, but they think you know, oh, that just means I have to be strong and not show emotion, and it doesn't mean that at all. You can still break down, you can still cry, you can still have a really bad day, and there's probably going to be a lot of them. That's OK, probably going to be a lot of them, and that's okay. But are you going to choose to show up for the people that are still here with you? And I think that's a really powerful message that you have in your story, and it doesn't have to be perfect, it doesn't have to look perfect, you don't have to be perfect, but what's perfect is you showing up every day, like that's the beauty of it. And it's not easy, but I think there is kind of a strength and a deep bond that can happen with people when you are there for them through those times. 

0:36:57 - Angie

No, for sure, For sure, I agree with you wholeheartedly. Yeah, I mean, we, the, the showing up, I mean I would have never wanted to miss the chance of seeing the hard, the ugly and the bad you know, because then you don't get to see the beauty, right? Yeah, I agree. 

0:37:16 - Maya

I think what's also really fascinating about your story, angie, is that all three of these significant losses that you've had, they're all so specific, like, do you feel like you're a doctor at this point, like I'm like blown away by your you know I always like to bring a little levity to every, every episode, because these are very deep, intense. 

You know stories and conversations but I'm like blown away by the knowledge that you have from your brother to your husband, to your own child, garrett, like that is like. Did you feel like you were becoming a doctor when you? How did you? Were you just researching web MD, like crazy. What was your life like during all of that? 

0:37:57 - Angie

Well, yes, I, um, I definitely was. Yes, I, we were given, uh, we were given just the opinion from the doctors. Do not Google anything but me, of course I Google everything who follows that. 

I know, I know, but yeah, so I mean I I've learned a lot, you know, and I and it's it's helped me, it's helped, it's helped me help family and friends along the journey, because I'm not I'm not an expert by any mean. I mean I am a grief expert, not because I took classes and became one. I'm living the grief journey, you know, and so I am a grief expert. But I also I became very knowledgeable and stuff, so that's helped me to be able to volunteer in certain like in the in the brain tumor world, you know, like for fundraisers and different things. I've learned, you know, like it's February's heart month, right, my son died of a heart condition. So how can I help people understand heart, you know. 

So what we've done, what we did, is we started this before Jack had died. Actually he wants to, wanted to give back, so we would raise money through golf outings and we have placed 13 AED machines, which are electronic, automatic electronic defibrillators, throughout our community. So within you know, a few years, we were able to give back to our community. You know, an AED machine would have never saved Garrett's life, but it was something small that we could to help other people if they would ever, you know, have a sudden cardiac. You know situation. So that's how we, that's what we do. You know that's what I've done. I've poured my knowledge of what I've learned from my people and the symptoms, and in even Gracie I mean she says she's a doctor now she's watched Grey's Anatomy at least five, six times over. So she's like Mom, I'm basically a doctor. 

I love it, I love it. 

0:40:06 - Maya

Yeah, no, I think I think that thank you for sharing that. You guys went and did that and got those, because I think that's something that I hear all the time. People ask me all the time, like what do I do, what do I do for an anniversary, what do I do to remember my sibling, what do I do to remember my loved one's? A big question. And I always tell them I'm like what feels right to you, what feels good like, what's gonna make you feel like for garrett, you guys wanted to get these machines that wouldn't have been accessible and, no, might not have saved him, but it could save someone else. 

And I like feel warm inside, just like you know, retelling that part of your story, because I connect with that and I think that is such an important thing, because a lot of people want to know, like, what can I do? And some people are like, why should I do a podcast too, or should I write a book? It's not one size fits all, it's how are you going to express that love that you still have and how do you feel like you can make a difference? And it can be something really small and simple, like remembering them every year, doing a simple, simple thing like that, or you can do something really cool, like you did, and give back to the community and make a difference and make make a change, because I think all of us show and want to get our grief and our pain out in different ways, and so I think that's a really important message here as well. 

Yes, Because I think it's sometimes people don't really know. They're like, how do I remember this person or how do I do? So? I want to go back just a little bit as to talking about this because, again, I find this really fascinating and unfortunate, of course, that your husband and unfortunate, of course, that your husband. That was so fast what happened with your husband, and so both Seth and your husband had brain tumors and went through this. What causes brain tumors, Angie? Like how do we know? Is this still a mystery? Like, how do we look out for this with our loved ones? Because I love to share all of your stories on this show, but every episode we talk about a specific type of loss and bringing awareness to it is so important, but what do we really know about brain tumors? Like, how do we prevent this? I think that might be quite a bit of the frustration in this. 

0:42:21 - Angie

Yeah, you know, I think the biggest thing is, I don't think that they know, you know, and I think it's just the research that we need to continue to do. So, for example, with my brother Seth, his tumor they think that he may have been born with, but it was so slow going growing, not going ongoing, but it was very slow growing so it did not present symptoms until he was well into his twenties. Right, and so it's not necessarily genetic, it's not genetic disposition, but I believe that we are all. We are all born with cancer cells in our body. Okay, how, how cancer cells decide to show themselves and every human being is different for every one of us, right, and um, some cancer cells will remain dormant for a person's entire life and they will never develop into a cancer. Um, I mean, that is that's just science, right there. 

But, um, with Jack, for example, then he, jack, was fair skin, red head, blue eyes, so he had every, every disposition for melanoma. At 21 years of age, jack did have melanoma on his arm, like a spot, and he had it removed and that was it. And so then, 15 years later, what ignited in Jack's body was stress, so he had a lot of stress in his body from our son dying. So a year after our son died is when Jack was diagnosed with this cancer and I've talked endlessly with doctors about this. Not all doctors agree, a lot of doctors do agree, but stress is very indicative of what happens in our bodies and so since Jack had already had those cancer genes, the melanoma it just erupted in his body again, I feel, from the stress, and you know, jack held on to a lot of that stress, um, by being the strong one for me and Gracie and for our entire family, and I don't think he let his grief out, you know and so he held onto it and so that is just one of the things. So then his ignited an ocular melanoma, which is also, you know, jack was an outdoors guy a lot and you know who knows when. 

You know if wearing sunglasses would that have helped, we don't know, but he had, he had that predisposition of having, you know, those cancer cells for melanoma. So we really have to take care of ourselves when we are grieving, for example, when we are grieving a human being, whoever that loss is, I mean we have to do the things, we have to take care of our mental health and our physical health, doing the breathing exercises, doing, you know, getting out in nature, taking care of our bodies, you know not not turning to alcohol, or you know, not turning to drugs and doing all that stuff and eating healthy, because otherwise we're going to make our bodies stressed out and, god forbid another person, you know, develops cancer. But, like I said, every everybody's journey and story is different when it comes to the cancer. That everybody's journey and story is different when it comes to the cancer and you know, sometimes we just don't know it could be environmental things that you know develop. 

0:45:58 - Maya

No, I think that's interesting that you're able to reflect back and see, you know, yes, my husband internalized a lot of this and I think you know we all do this as a coping when we're going through a loss or grief or pain or stress, like all of that. But I do think it's like we talk about this on the show with any male guests that come on, like men tend to internalize a lot because there's just not as much room for them to grieve. So that's like a whole other other thing too, right? So, guys that listen to the show, like it's OK to show your feelings and put it out there, because you know, like you said, it manifests in our body and I appreciate you sharing that too that we are born with cancer and you know, I think this is it's all fascinating, but I think it's important that we do take care of ourselves too. 

When grieving and I've talked about it many times as well because I was so guilty of this you know, a lot of us drink or self-medicate or, you know, become kind of addicted to just watching TV or sleeping or things like that. And, yes, well, sleep is important. You need to get outside, you need to breathe, you need to like move your body and these sound like simple things. Like people who have not been through significant loss might be like what, like duh? We do that every day, but those are big milestones for you. 

0:47:08 - Angie

They are, they really are. Yeah, you know, like with the, with the male, like so you look at my brother too, for example. So he was doing so good with his cancer. You know, it's like he really didn't even have cancer per se. It's like he had a brain tumor, right, Because he never had to do the hard chemo and the hard radiation stuff. But what happened? Jack died. And then what? The stress of all that I'm sure probably ignited something in Seth's body as well, I would imagine. 

0:47:40 - Maya

I was thinking about that as you were explaining Jack's story. 

I'm like well then, seth, like right after you know, and again, I, think there is something to the fact that there's a lot of internalization and that shows like our thoughts, our feelings, all of that, like it physically manifests it's very real and it's a very real part of your story and I think it's again a very important story to tell. 

And something I wanted to ask you too, as were sitting here chatting Angie, is, you know, often those of us who have lost someone to cancer and obviously here we're talking mostly about siblings, of course, but there's a lot of anticipatory grief that happens right like can you tell us a little bit about your journey with that? 

Because you've not only had that with Seth, but you again, again, you lost your son in a very different way, very sudden, and sudden death, in my opinion, is very different than anticipatory, like when you know it's going to happen. But my opinion on this and again I like to hear this from people that have experienced both and I think that's a lot of value that you bring to the show, so thank you so much for sharing but I think they're both awful and they're both terrible and it's not real till it really happens. It's just experientially a little bit different. So can you tell us kind of a little bit about that, because with Seth I almost feel like there was and there wasn't, because there was so much hope that he was going to be OK until, kind of the last round and then, but with your husband probably a lot more anticipatory grief because it was stage four, right, tell us a little bit about that. 

0:49:10 - Angie

Yeah, yep, yeah, yeah. You're exactly right With Jack. So when he was diagnosed, he was diagnosed terminal and they told us that he was going to die from this disease. We didn't know when Jack was going to die to die from this disease. We didn't know when Jack was going to die it could have been years, it could have been days. You know who knew. But I started grieving my husband that day. I knew our marriage together was going to end. You know we were never going to get that, happily ever after. 

0:49:40 - Maya

And no rocking chairs on the front porch. All the classic stuff, yeah, yeah. 

0:49:47 - Angie

You know, and so I guess, during that time period, it was just really important for me to learn as much as I could from Jack on how to be a good person. Jack was an amazing human being and Jack was, um, he, he created a community of people every time, every second he got. So what could I learn from Jack? Right, so that was what I wanted to know. I want to know what can I learn from Jack to move forward in life when he is gone? You know, how can I be a good person? How can I make this world a better place? How can I raise our daughter the way Jack envisioned us raising her? And just, you know that that was just the biggest thing. It was. 

It was extremely different than losing our son suddenly. Yes, a sudden death and one that is like this is completely different. Yes, a sudden death and one that is like this is completely different. But it was always we had a caring bridge site for Jack that we would let you know, the community know what was going on. It's just, it's so exhausting when someone is terminal like this, you're just wondering when's the next ball going to drop, you know, and because we would have highs, we would have lows. 

Um, I'm I'm just in the process of finishing writing a book about our journey and, um, going back through all of this, it has really. I thought we had, I don't know, I didn't see a lot of happy times during that 16 months of Jack's life and it makes me sad that I don't remember the happy times, but then I also don't remember some of the really bad, bad times. But, having it documented, we just really were surviving. You know, and I think that's all a person can do, going through anticipatory grief is you just survive. You know, you know it's coming and you just have to do the best you can, honestly, and you have to love the people that you know are going to be gone. 

0:51:55 - Maya

Yeah, that's so exciting. You're writing a book. Okay, We'll have to connect again when that is out. Yes, no, I think. Oh God, such great advice. 

Angie just kind of gave me some chills, because this is something that's come up a whole lot. 

I'm talking about anticipatory grief and, you know, because there's so many people in the group that have that, there's so many people in the group that have sudden and then it's kind of somewhere in the middle for people and but those are the two big A's, right, you know, you know what's happening and and I love that you are so raw and open and sharing that you know, yeah, that's the day you start grieving, the day you get the news. 

And you know, on my show, the first episode, you know or my season, I should say is the call and everyone connects with that. It's so funny that everyone connects with that episode. It comes up every single time I talk to one of you guys and it's because we all have our own versions and I feel like, with anticipatory grief and as you guys are going through that process whether, like you said, it's a week, years, months, whatever it, weeks you have so many it's a lot of front loading for you guys, right, it's like lots of calls, lots of ups, lots of downs, and then I feel like, with sudden loss, there's that call or that moment where it happens. 

And then you kind of experience, a lot of that afterwards. And what's interesting about anticipatory grief is, yes, you're not, but you're never really prepared that it really happens, right, you think you are, you're grieving it right, and so I think you explained that really really well, and I think you're another person that has come on to talk about anticipatory grief and said to document, because it's not something that's really enjoyable during the time, no, but look at you, now you're writing a book about it and I'm sure you're really grateful that you did document things and things are there, because when we're in the moment, I think we see things very differently than when we're reflecting back. 

0:53:48 - Angie

Yes, I'm a huge journaler. I started journaling after our son, garrett, died, because when I couldn't sleep at night I would just get up and I journal until I do that, until the tears stopped. And once I stopped I'd be like, ok, I can go, you know, even if that was just getting two sentences out. But yes, I have that information and I tell you what I could look back six months after Garrett died, a year after Garrett died, and I mean those first six months, the journal entries were downright scary and I was like, holy moly, who is that lady, you know? And then I could look I'm like dang Angie, you've come a long ways. Good job, you know. 

And I was always so proud of myself. You know, this is not like, this is not big, monumental stuff, like, oh, she's fine and happy and everything's good. It's, it's slow but it's. I see that, I saw that progression and you know you have to take those little moments and know that you are healing. You don't see that, you don't think you are A year out, you think this is the way my life's going to be for the rest of my life and it sounds awful. I don't want to be this person. But then you look back and you're like I am healing. 

0:54:58 - Maya

I could not agree with you more. I could not agree with you more, and I can't even imagine what your journal entries looked like right after you lost Garrett Right. I mean, that was really the beginning of so many losses. 

I know Seth had been sick and had gone through surgery that I was keeping when my brother was killed and I read the eulogy live on the podcast, you know, I flipped through the pages and stuff and I was like, wow, I am. I had that thought. I'm healing, I'm moving forward. I'm not perfect. I'm nowhere near where I'll probably be in 10 years or 20 years forward. I'm not perfect. I'm nowhere near where I'll probably be in 10 years or 20 years, but I saw progression forward and I think there's such beauty in pen to paper for that. 

0:55:52 - Angie

Yeah, I do too. Yeah, I agree. I agree. 

0:55:55 - Maya

So, yes, as we kind of wrap Angie, tell us anything I missed that you want to share, and then also any advice that you could go back and give yourself at the beginning of all of these losses. Right, not just Seth, because what a significant loss, but if you could go back in time and kind of give yourself some advice, because I think that's really helpful to all of our listeners and, of course, touch on anything that I may have missed. And we'll close out. 

0:56:23 - Angie

Well, yeah, I just I honestly feel, um, give yourself grace. You know, I um, I feel like we, as grievers, uh, we do not give ourselves grace, we? We think that we aren't doing things right, we don't think we're doing them well, we don't think we're moving for forward, we don't think we're healing, we don't. We think everything's wrong. And I'm just going to quickly just snake in. 

You know Jack's sister, brooke. She passed away in 2018. And she died from alcoholism and I think that is very important with ending this. As you know, she did not give herself grace, um, she thought she was a bad sister, um, for not being there for her brother, um, during his diagnosis, because she lived out of state. Um, she fell into a depression. She fell into drinking, as comfortable drinking makes me feel okay, and it was because it was numbing her. You know her mind, and Brooke did die from alcoholism in nine years after her brother ejected. 

So I just honestly feel we have to give ourselves grace and know that the best we can do each morning is get up. Get up and do everything you can that day, and if you can just get up in the beginning, put on your clothes, sit on the couch you're doing good, right, you're doing really good. And if a month later, you get up and you start taking showers every other day, you're doing really good. You know, and I mean the slow progression. But this is you're giving yourself grace and it doesn't have to be perfect. It's going to be messy. It's going to be messy for a long time. 

So I just, honestly, I always tell people to give yourself grace and if you're not the griever and you're listening to this and you have the friend that's the grieving person, please give them grace. You can't fix them. You can't fix anything that they're going through. Just be there, acknowledge their grief and just say, okay, yep, you know, and you know, give them kudos on the back if they said, wow, I feel really good today I took a shower. You know. Say good job, buddy, I know you're doing great and um, but grace upon grace is what I say to everybody. 

0:58:47 - Maya

I love that and your daughter's name is Gracie. Gracie, it's kind of like your thing. I love that, angie, oh my. 

0:58:56 - Angie

God. 

0:58:56 - Maya

Grace upon grace. I love that and I really. You know we say that. A lot People are like give yourself grace, and I I've talked about it already this season. You know what does that mean. So thank you for defining that, because it can look different for everybody. And yeah, if it means that you just got off our bed and put a new sweatshirt on that day and got up and sat on the couch like that's cool. But you know, if you brush your teeth, great, Like I mean it's. And I love that you're giving advice to the people that want to support us as well, because sometimes you don't know. You're like God why can't she just get it together? Why can't he just get it together? 

It's because, this is a lot, you know it's a lot and you definitely understand going through multi-laws and, yes, I appreciate you talking about your sister-in-law as well, because that's a really great example. It really is. It's a really great example, it really is it's a really? 

sad example. I'm so sorry you lost her, because that is someone who didn't give herself grace. You're right and I hear this a lot too, and we I'm sure you do as well where people are like I wish I didn't get to say this or I was, I was here, I wish I did that, I wished. And there has to come a point in your healing journey. It doesn't have to be day one, day two, day three, but you do have to get to a place where you forgive yourself, because that is a part of giving yourself grace and I know that's a part of your message as well, and it's. It doesn't mean that you're saying you were perfect. It just means I'm going to do better. I'm going to do better and that's okay. 

And the reality is the person that you have lost whether it's your brother or sister or whomever you've lost or multi lost like you bless your heart, angie, like they're no longer physically here with us. So we have to live in honor of them and we can either shame ourselves and what happens as we numb, and that's what I did in the beginning too. I drank too much, I didn't want to deal with things, and now life looks totally different for me because I decided you know what my brother, he forgives me. He forgives me for anything that was unsaid he forgives me for. But that takes time and it's okay to not feel that that way day one, but you, you will get to that place, as long as you move through it and allow yourself to feel it like you just explained so perfectly. 

1:01:02 - Angie

Yes, Angie, where can we? 

1:01:04 - Maya

connect with you, Because I think a lot of people will connect with your story in the aspect of multi-laws, of course, and then again all your knowledge about cancer, brain cancer too, or so much knowledge here. Where are you comfortable with people connecting with you? 

1:01:19 - Angie

Well, I have turned, you know, my passion into purpose and I've created a greeting card company called Butterflies and Halos. Butterflies are my sign for my son Garrett, and then halos are my angels that are in heaven. And so Butterflies and Halos is basically a greeting card company. It's for friends, to help friends navigate the grief journey. And, um, you know, we, like I said before, we can't fix them. But if we can give our friend a card that says exactly how they feel, um, let's jump over the? Um the cliche with deepest sympathy. I'm so sorry for your loss. Um, and let's get down to the nitty gritty. Like, the very first card I came up with was I don't know what to say let's go eat one of those damn casseroles Okay. 

Yes, okay, so that's what you would give your friends. So this has grown into. I have about 150 greeting cards on my website, but you can check me out at butterfliesandhaloscom on my website. But you can check me out at butterfliesandhaloscom and also on social media. I'm at butterfliesandhalos and I have all the information you need there that is so cool, angie, awesome, yeah, yes. 

And then, if anybody listening to this wants to, I do offer a code by using podcast15. And you can use that at checkout and get 15% off your whatever your order is Okay. 

1:02:48 - Maya

I'm glad I asked. Awesome. Thank you, Angie. Thank you for sharing all your loved ones with us today and for being on the show. Thank you so much for listening to the surviving siblings podcast. If you enjoyed this episode as much as I did creating it for you, then share it on your chosen social media platform and don't forget to tag us at Surviving Siblings Podcast so that more surviving siblings can find us. Remember to rate, review and subscribe to the podcast, and don't forget to follow us on all social media platforms. We're on Instagram, Twitter and TikTok at surviving siblings podcast. All links can be found in the show notes, so be sure to check those out too. Thank you again for the support. Until the next episode, keep on surviving my surviving siblings. Thank you.