Dr. Dawn DiRaimondo - Coping with Grief during the Holidays

[00:00:00] Maya: Welcome to the surviving siblings podcast. I'm your host, Maya Roffler. As a surviving sibling myself, I knew that I wanted to share my story, my brother's story. I lost my brother to a homicide in November 2016. And after going through this experience, I knew that I wanted to share my story and his story.

[00:00:31] And now it's your turn to share your stories.

[00:00:36] Okay, welcome back to the surviving siblings podcast. I am really excited to be here today for this special episode as we're going into the holidays. I have a fan favorite. I'm just super close with her, love her to death, Dr. Dawn DiRomando, and excited to have you back here today. As you guys know, she's been on the show before, but she's also the author of Surviving Sibling Loss, the invisible thread that connects us through life and death.

[00:01:08] Dawn, welcome back!

[00:01:11] Dawn: Oh my goodness, Maya. It's so good to see you and to be here. Thank you so much for having me on, especially this episode, which is super meaningful to me to be talking about the holidays and milestones, which is some of the hardest parts of coping with grief. So I'm glad to be here. 

[00:01:32] Maya: I am so excited to have you back. I loved kicking off, uh, which we'll kind of dive into in a little bit, uh, my second season with you. That was So amazing. But for those of those listeners that are tuning in for the first time or didn't hear your first interview, don't tell us a little bit about your story in in kind of a nutshell, so we can get that background.

[00:01:57] And then we're going to definitely dive into holidays, how we cope with that milestones and how we cope with it. And how we've coped with it or maybe not coped so well with it in the past and then give some tips on that. But let's, let's talk about your story just a little bit in a nutshell so everyone knows about your sibling loss story.

[00:02:16] Dawn: Sounds good. So let's see where to start. So I am the oldest of three. Um, I have a younger sister. My brother was the youngest and In 2004, we lost my brother. Um, he was a flight medic in the army in Iraq, and I was about 28, he was 22 at the time, and he was on a helicopter, and unfortunately,

[00:02:46] There was another helicopter traveling with them, and so we know that they tried resuscitating everybody and nobody could be saved. And so it was very shocking. I know, you know, people are at war, you think, well, There's always this chance, but he had been away for almost a year. He was due to be home in six weeks and, you know, it was literally the call that changes your life.

[00:03:11] And you, you know, I just think froze and kind of got catapulted right into this world of grief. And I was a new therapist at the time. I had recently been licensed as a psychologist. Literally, my sister called me at work, um, not realizing that no one else had told me and she had to tell me. And, you know, I froze.

[00:03:36] And then she's like, you need to come home, which was, they were in Southern California and I live in Northern California. And so I. You know, went home and, you know, as we all know, just entered this completely new world of grief and it, it changed our family. It changed my life. Uh, I now specialize in grief and loss as a therapist.

[00:03:58] It's, it's been, it's been huge, but I've actually, you know, come, how do I put this? I like helping people through the journey of grief because it's so hard and we live in a society that really. doesn't know how to talk about it, doesn't want to talk about it. There's a lot of pressure to move on. It's really difficult to try to grieve when you don't know how, and you have a society that doesn't really help you.

[00:04:24] So I really love being a part of helping people in my practice, and being a part of podcasts, and writing a book, to help people know, how do you do this? Because everybody wonders, what do you do? How do you do this? And so, and also, I'm just so glad you've done this podcast, because you've also created an opportunity for people to plug in, and learn, and so that at least we feel like other people do get it.

[00:04:46] Even if our friends don't, even if our family or partners don't, you know, some people do so. And, you know, I want to mention why it feels so meaningful also to be on this episode in particular. It's the last time we talked to Michael was on Christmas day in 2003, and we didn't know we would get to talk to him.

[00:05:06] I can still picture us in our living room when my mom got the call and. We talked to him. He sounded good. Again, he was supposed to be home six weeks later, and unfortunately, 14 days later, he died. So, and this January 8th will be 20 years of losing him. So this, this whole thing is just, uh, really a big deal.

[00:05:33] So I'm glad that I can talk about it and hopefully share our experiences and maybe help give people ideas on how they can navigate through the holidays, which are difficult. When we don't have our siblings here. 

[00:05:46] Maya: Very difficult. We've been wanting to do this episode for a while. We've been really excited about this episode. And I feel like it's the perfect timing as well with the 20 year anniversary coming up and you really understanding what it's like. I want to go back to what you were saying earlier just for a second and then we're going to go forward into how do we deal with these milestones and especially the holidays as we're rolling into them.

[00:06:12] But you were talking about how, you know, it's always, it could happen, right? When someone's deployed, you know, you could lose them. There are risks there, but you guys were at the finish line. If you know, it felt like right, six weeks away, he's coming home. You it's still a very sudden loss. It's a sudden loss because the expectation was not there.

[00:06:36] You did not think this was going to happen. And so I think that's one of the many reasons that we connected because sudden loss is, you know, I make no comparisons. We're both alike in that way. But It is a little bit of a diff. There's different things that come with different types of loss and sudden loss Like you're not expecting it and it's like the rug is being pulled out underneath you and as I mentioned before if you want to listen to dawn's Full episode about her brother book and obviously we're going to talk a lot about this today, too But we're really diving into holidays.

[00:07:08] You can go to our season 2 episode 1 we really get into it It's a great episode, but tell us a little bit about dive into this Dawn, I'm really excited to talk about this today. What what was it like for you guys? I mean you were coming out of the holidays you get the news that was very difficult Tell me a little bit about your first holidays and experiences.

[00:07:30] I, they were difficult for me.

[00:07:33] Dawn: Absolutely. You know, I think because we, let's see, lost some January 8th. We had like a lot of, I guess, time before the holidays approach, although my birthday was in February. So that was pretty quick. And, you know, and I think what's hard with the holidays too, is you can't get away from it. Like there's no getting away from the holidays.

[00:07:54] It starts. I'm sure Costco has decorations already. I don't know. I try not to go there, but you know, by October for sure, September. Right. And so you're kind of forced to think about it and deal with it. It's on TV. You hear music on the radio, like it's everywhere. And. My mom used to love Christmas and she couldn't do it.

[00:08:18] Like she wanted nothing to do with Christmas. So like everything came to a stop for her. And so we even went away. We didn't stay home because she didn't want to be home. She didn't decorate. She didn't do anything. And so we ended up staying at a hotel in Southern California, like in a beach town, Huntington Beach.

[00:08:37] And we actually invited another couple, family friends of ours. that didn't have kids. They knew Michael because we couldn't have it just be the four of us. You know, I, again, I have a younger sister. She's about almost three years younger than me. And it just felt way too sad. And so we asked them if they would join just to, to help break up the dynamic.

[00:08:57] Like they'd be okay. If we were crying about Michael and talking about him. It wouldn't make them uncomfortable, but they also helped bring, you know, some, I don't know, laughter, it just kind of break up the dynamics. It wasn't so obvious that, you know, it was just the four of us. And, you know, and again, in some ways, how do we put this?

[00:09:18] Um, and some people might be able to relate to this because he was gone for so long, We were kind of used to him not being there, and there's almost this little part of your brain that's like, maybe he's not really gone. He's just not back yet, right? He's just away. Um, and it wasn't like we were in denial, like we knew he wasn't coming back.

[00:09:37] But there was a way in which it's not like we had just seen him a week ago. And so it was just such a weird experience. But having the other couple there. Was helpful for sure. And so I even have clients where they, they leave the first year. Um, especially sometimes the second year because they just can't be home doing the same thing they've always done without their child or without their sibling.

[00:10:04] And so I think that's an idea if that works for anybody to consider doing something like that. And so that's what got us through. The first Christmas was kind of not being home. And we also did something like we adopted a family. I think it was through church or somewhere we saw that, you know, you could adopt a family and they would give like the kids ages and the size of clothes they needed.

[00:10:28] And so we kind of did that as something, it was a way like. to honor my brother, you know, instead of buying him a present, we sort of did that. We donated to a charity, you know, or the foundation we started for him and try to do things like that.

[00:10:44] Um, it took a long time before my mom wanted to decorate. I ended up having my daughter in 2007.

[00:10:50] So three years later. And so she, my daughter got a little bit older. My mom wanted to bring back the lights. and the decorations and so I think it took like four or five years

[00:11:03] Maya: I was just going to say, how many years was it before she was decorating? So she was not decorating for years. That's 

[00:11:09] Dawn: It was a long time. Yeah. I mean, there was, she didn't do Christmas cards and I mean, we used to call her miss Christmas. I mean, she was all about all of it. So it was really significant. For her not to, um, and then we didn't even want to be with extended family. Not that we didn't want to be, but, but we really weren't going to celebrate Christmas.

[00:11:27] So it wasn't like we're going to go to their house and, and, um, anyway, but eventually it came back in part because my mom was motivated for my daughter. And so, and we did, you know, with stockings, cause sometimes the question is, what do you do with the stocking? Do you put the stocking up or not? And we 

[00:11:46] Maya: Oh, that's a good one. That's a good one. Did you guys put Michael's stocking up when, 

[00:11:50] Dawn: I ended up finding one that said, um, in spirit and memory, which I kind of liked too, so I think it depended on the year sometimes. They would just put his regular with his name or they put in spirit and memory or both or something. And so what we would do is write letters to him or our favorite memories and put that.

[00:12:10] in the stocking.

[00:12:12] Yeah, and then someone would read them. Mm hmm as a way to kind of integrate him into the holidays still for us. 

[00:12:21] Maya: Whose idea was that? That's an amazing idea. Whose idea was that? And how, how many years do you think you were in when you guys started to do the letters? Because I, I'm like inspired. I'm like, Oh, maybe I want to do that this year. That's a really cool idea.

[00:12:34] Dawn: Yeah, I think it was mine. You know, like everything's kind of a blur with grief and lot like I only remember sort of like tidbits or snapshots like so much of it. I don't, it sounds like something I would think of. So I think it was maybe my idea.

[00:12:50] but hopefully I'm not taking credit for someone else's. Um, and I, I don't know.

[00:12:57] Maya: We hope you're enjoying this incredible episode of the surviving siblings podcast. I'm your host, Maya Roffler. We'll be back in just a minute after hearing from our incredible sponsor. 

[00:13:12] When Dr. Dawn DiRomando lost her brother in 2004, she found only one book on sibling loss at that time. When she learned in 2019 there was still little written for surviving siblings, she knew it was time to start writing. She mixes both personal and professional insights throughout her book. Dr. Dawn also interviewed 14 other surviving siblings and shared their stories of what was most helpful to them in their grieving process.

[00:13:42] Her book Surviving Sibling Loss, the invisible thread that connects us through life and death, can be found on all platforms. Amazon, Audible, Kindle, and more. The wish that both Dr. Dawn and I have is to help surviving siblings feel more understood, validated, and less alone in this journey. Her book provides hope that you can find ways to stay connected to your sibling, honor them, and learn to live with loss without leaving them behind in the grieving process.

[00:14:20] Dawn: I'm trying to think we, I don't think we did stockings the first year because she was pretty anti everything. Yeah. So I don't remember when they came back, but I know that whenever ours came back, he was part of it. So we didn't want to like leave him out. Um, and the other thing That we did, and I don't know if people like praying, we're, we're not overly religious, but we're spiritual.

[00:14:45] And we would do what we call a family prayer. And we would stand around in a circle and we'd hold hands and we would each take a turn saying something to Michael. And we did that, I think a lot in the beginning around Christmas or any significant sort of time we felt like again, it felt sort of like Michael time, like we wanted to honor him acknowledge him.

[00:15:07] And that was that was something else that we did for sure.

[00:15:12] Maya: That is really cool. I want to do that this year I want to have a stocking and write stuff to my father like that. That's inspiring For me just listening to this. I didn't know that you did that See, I love doing these with you because I learned all this stuff. That's amazing But I think what's really interesting about christmas specifically what you're sharing with this and you know If you celebrate christmas or any I mean Let's, I mean, December is holidays, right?

[00:15:37] November, it hits you hard, like you were talking about. I mean, gosh, I mean, all the way in, I think August, July, I started seeing stuff in like TJ Maxx for like, um, Halloween. I'm like, are you kidding me? My birthday hasn't even happened yet, which is in late September. I'm like, this is crazy. It's crazy. But that's how it is.

[00:15:56] And so it's kind of shoved in your face, which is why this episode is so important. Because you see those things and it has a totally different meaning than, Prior to your loss of your sibling, right? And I think That like you see that, you know, oh god, I have that holiday coming up or I have so it doesn't really matter But if you're a Christmas celebrator like us or there's so many holidays in December depending on your faith your background what you believe in but I really think it's interesting that your mother had such a deep passion for Christmas and this was such a cultural thing built into your family And that came to a screeching halt.

[00:16:37] And I think that really, sharing that, I really appreciate you being so open about that. Because I think it normalizes it for other people. Because I think we're expected to just, okay, throw up the lights or continue on the same way. And I think it's okay to give yourself permission to celebrate however you would like.

[00:16:58] I think that's really the point, right? 

[00:17:01] Dawn: right?

[00:17:01] I'm glad you said that because it also reminds me that a lot of times if not all the time that people grieve different and families. So it's really hard is if you still want to celebrate and they don't or they want to and you don't. How do you, manage that? And that's tough to 

[00:17:20] Maya: how, do you how, you did it! So how do you manage that? I think that's really... , one of the, the big topics here, right, is how do you manage it? Because your mom was Miss Christmas . I love that. But then she didn't want to, and maybe, you know, did you feel differently? Did your dad feel differently? Did your sister, like, how did that work?

[00:17:40] And I also wanna comment too, before you answer that, I love that you guys, by the way, hunting Huntington Beach is fabulous. So I think that's a, that is a totally healthy thing to do, you know, to go away and, and kind of. Recharge and reset and especially if that was such an important holiday for your family.

[00:17:59] But how, how do you manage that? I really want to know because no two people grieve alike. We say that all the time.

[00:18:06] Dawn: right. I think we were on the same page that we didn't want to be home either. We were, my dad's in the hotel business, so staying in hotels felt kind of like a second home. Like it felt comfortable. It didn't feel weird. It was a nice hotel. So we were all on board with that, but I will say that because I didn't live at home anymore.

[00:18:28] I was old enough. You know, it was my upper twenties that I'm pretty sure by the second Christmas, probably I still decorated. Right?

[00:18:36] So it's like, well, I'll decorate my house and we probably got a tree. And we have lots of, um, Michael angel ornaments, memorial, like every year that like, there's like four of them that go on my tree.

[00:18:50] And so we, so we still did it. I still did it. Um, the way I wanted to, I. Was okay with her not doing so luckily we're kind of on the same page that and I only spent Every other year with them because I'd alternate with my husband's family because we got married in 2006 So, you know, um, I guess so there was a way to do both I do think it's hard though.

[00:19:16] How do people do that if they're not on the same page, you know I guess you have to sort of talk about it and figure out what's a compromise on how to do that. And I think it's hard to people have Children because I mean, I'm sure some of your listeners lost a sibling and they have kids and they don't want to skip Christmas and it or Hanukkah like all the other holidays.

[00:19:39] And it's probably best they don't like they need a sense of normalcy. They want a sense of normalcy. And so in some ways, moms kind of have to go through the motion a bit for the sake of their kids. Um, and, and hopefully that they could still do some things that feel true to themselves, maybe to honor, you know, their feelings with their sibling or not.

[00:20:01] Um, but I think it's tricky. I wish I had a way better answer, but I think 

[00:20:06] Maya: No, I think that's a great answer. No, I think that's a great answer and I think you just hit on something that's really important is yes, we do have a lot of moms out there, hi moms, and especially with young children, you're absolutely right, like, it's, that's a whole different psychological conversation, maybe another episode, right?

[00:20:26] Because they will ask questions and then they're like, okay, well, what about yeah, Christmas. What about Hanukkah? What about my presents? What about Santa? What about, you know what I mean? Lighting the menorah, you know, whatever you're doing during, during that holiday time. Kids, like, they process, but then they like bounce back.

[00:20:45] So as a, as a mom and a parent, if you're a dad listening too, like as a parent, that's so difficult. You know, I don't have children, so I, I can't really imagine, but it's You know, you still have to keep moving forward with life and those expectations that Santa's coming or you're going to get multiple presents for every day to, you know, to be significant or whatever you're celebrating.

[00:21:07] And that's a lot of pressure, you know, because you're carrying multiple, you know, emotions. You're excited for your children to experience, um, the holidays and everything that comes with that, but you're missing someone. Your brother or your sister or if you're a multi loss person, that's, that's a lot.

[00:21:25] You're carrying multiple emotions. I think that's difficult.

[00:21:29] Dawn: It is definitely. And you know, another thought too, um, around what to do with some of that is what if people did something like for themselves to honor their sibling, meaning like maybe you buy memorial jewelry, right? So that you wear it all the time, or you have their name or their initial for some people getting a tattoo, right?

[00:21:51] Like maybe like, instead of buying a present for your sibling, you're going to put that money towards. a present that represents your sibling or doing or donating, right? Especially if you lost a sibling to suicide or cancer that you donate to some, um, you know, charities or you participate in like the walks that they do.

[00:22:11] Right. So again, I think partly what I like to help people with is You always have a connection. You always have a relationship just because they're not physically here does not mean they're not your sibling They're not a part of your heart and soul and your family story and your story They are so you're managing a different relationship with them.

[00:22:29] I believe that's that's how I've done it for almost 20 years now and And so you try to take that grief energy and you channel it into something, um, that connects you to your sibling, right, depending on either how they died or something, even a trip. Let's say you've always wanted to do a trip. Let's say the two of you talked about doing a trip.

[00:22:49] Doing it, um, in honor of them because it feels good to honor them and it's a way to be connected and I know for me I felt worried. I talked about this in the book too. I had a trip to Ireland and I was really worried like he'd never been there. It's so far away. I don't want to feel far away from him.

[00:23:11] And I was so happy to find that I didn't feel far away. I actually felt closer to him. Um, and maybe because Ireland is like one of the most beautiful places on the planet and it seems like it's kind of a spiritual religious place and, and it just helped confirm and validate for me, like, he's connected to me.

[00:23:28] It doesn't matter where I go. Right. And that can be a powerful experience for people. And I guess I hope that people feel validated and get a sense of permission. Like. Do these things even if other people don't understand even if your friends or your partners like hey You know, it's been eight months or you're still crying about this You're still you know, where it's been two years or three years like no you you can still do these things That's not being stuck in my opinion.

[00:23:56] Like if you're not leaving your house And you know, you're not still living your life or that, that stuck. And then yeah, you probably need to get into some therapy to help, but the way I talk about living with loss and grief is doing these things along the way, like in your life. So, Mm-Hmm. 

[00:24:18] Maya: This is so interesting that we're talking about this because I literally just talked about this yesterday with a couple other bereaved people. So, again, chills, love it. I went on a trip, as I shared, in season one. Very, in my opinion, it was Pretty quickly after my brother passed away, right, was killed and This was in January.

[00:24:41] He was killed right before Thanksgiving and I love Mexico. I've always loved Mexico. I have friends that live there now, so I, you know, it's not just the resort vibe, like, I get to see, like, you know, the really cool ruins and go into these places and, like, hang with the locals, and we all know that's a totally different experience.

[00:25:00] I wasn't gonna go. I was not gonna go. I was like, there's no way, I gotta stay here, I gotta stay in bed, like, cause that felt like I was stuck. I mean, like you were saying, like you articulated this perfectly, I was stuck, and I felt like that was safer, and so I shoved myself into that trap because I was like, I'm going.

[00:25:20] And I took my, you know, I had gotten my tattoo, like you were talking about, I had gotten my tattoo, but I brought his ashes and a necklace that I wear. I don't wear that necklace all the time anymore. I'm seven years into this now, right? It's a little different, but I had to have him with me, but what I didn't realize, I connect so much with your Ireland story, I felt more connected to him than I had it since he had passed away on that trip because I was seeing these ancient ruins and I was jumping into cenotes and like, it was so spiritual.

[00:25:53] I felt like he was with me. So a plus highly recommend. Yep. 100%. Doesn't matter what anyone else thinks. If you feel like you want to go on this trip or, and even if you hold yourself back a little bit, give yourself a shove. Like literally it was 

[00:26:09] Dawn: I agree.

[00:26:09] Maya: I did.

[00:26:11] Dawn: Like, I get people need to like cocoon at first. It feels like you want to cocoon. And then you need to come out of the or not need, I don't want to tell people, but coming out of the cocoon, even if it's just temporarily to go on a trip, like you do feel more connected to yourself and them. And maybe because you're not doing like regular life and a job and chores and like you get to just sort of be a human being.

[00:26:34] And in that, I think we're more open to all kinds of connection. And, but you know, Maya, I meant to ask you too, do you want to say anything about your. First Christmas without your brother and what you did.

[00:26:49] and 

[00:26:50] Maya: Yeah, absolutely. I I flip the script on me. I love it. . Absolutely. So it's interesting and I think, again, this is one of the reasons that you and I connected instantly and I connected with your book because, you know, our brothers passed away around the holidays, right? I mean, yours, you spoke to your brother and then, you know, two weeks later he was gone and my brother was right before the holidays, so it was.

[00:27:20] It's not fun. It's not fun. Short quote on that one. But no, to go into detail, I mean, my brother was shot on November 19th of 2016, right? We all know this. And declared officially dead at, uh, on November 21st. So that's his death date, November 21st. The following like day, I think it was like, well, cause we left the hospital like midnight going into the 22nd, whatever it was that it was like a day.

[00:27:48] And then it was Thanksgiving. So that Thanksgiving was. Awful. It was awful. Um, my family went out to dinner because of course, like we had some amazing people send us a lot of food and like things for Thanksgiving dinner, but, and I know that they meant well, I know they meant well, right? But there's no way we're popping in a turkey and making stuffing and, you know, singing, you know, music.

[00:28:13] And there's just, you're not doing that when you just walked away from. Your brother, your son, you know, their body for the last time. Like you're just not doing that. So we went out to dinner and you know, it was, it was weird. It was very weird. Um, it was. Solemn, it was weird. I don't really have any other words for it.

[00:28:37] And sometimes you just don't and As I share on season one, it was kind of that dinner was kind of the beginning of this really Complicated additional complications in my family, right? I mean my family got in a huge fight that night I was left alone after that. So to this day, I will be honest. I dread Thanksgiving and I will talk about how I've started to change that, but it has taken, that took me time.

[00:29:05] Um, and then, you know, my, we had my, the celebration of life on December, I think it was December 3rd, we did that for my brother, if I recall correctly. Um, and then, you know, Then it's the holidays. We're in the holidays. And so I Had a really tough first Christmas as most people do it doesn't like you expressed as well It doesn't really matter if it happened 12 months prior or 10 months prior or if it literally just happened a month before it was tough and I was dating a really really sweet guy at the time really sweet guy and he Wanted me to go Um, he's very Catholic.

[00:29:50] I'm not, like, like you are. I'm more spiritual, but, um, I did go to Catholic school, so that was not uncomfortable for me. I'm wearing a cross right now, so obviously it's still a spiritual thing in me. And he wanted me to go to, I grew up doing this, he wanted me to go to mass with him and meet his family.

[00:30:07] And I will tell you right now, I had a complete anxiety attack. Which is still not me. Because I'm extroverted. You know, I do struggle with anxiety, but I, I just was frozen on the couch. Just frozen. And I remember calling him and feeling so bad because the relationship was pretty new still. You know, I think if you're, you know, only a couple months in, that's very new in my opinion.

[00:30:30] But, um, You know, and I wanted to meet his family. He was such a lovely person and I already knew his family was lovely too. And I called him, I said, I can't physically move off this couch. Um, like I was like, I'm sorry. And I just stared at my little Christmas tree with my, you know, my, cause I had adopted the second dog at that time in honor of my brother.

[00:30:50] And I just had each one on either side and I had a bottle of wine and I'm like, I was really numbing. Right. And. He was, thank God, so sweet and understanding. He came over after mass and we spent the next day together and I didn't talk to anybody. I did not talk to anybody. It was really difficult. It was, 

[00:31:10] Dawn: Wow. 

[00:31:10] Maya: it was a blur.

[00:31:11] It was very difficult. Um, we like cooked something together and watched, you know, some shows that would take my mind off of stuff. But that was, One of the, I mean, it was probably the worst Christmas ever, and it has nothing to do with him. He was a fabulous person, is a fabulous person, but um, I felt very alone.

[00:31:32] I felt very sad. I didn't want to think about anything, but The following Christmas, I'll just kind of give you guys a little bit of hope here. The following Christmas, I learned to cope a little bit more. And the following, like, holiday season, I was going through, I had, I call her my grief partner now, because we're so close, um, because she had lost her mother, as I share.

[00:31:55] as well. Um, about two weeks before I lost my brother and she was my grief buddy. And so we did the holidays together. We did Thanksgiving together. We did Christmas together. We went out to eat at our favorite restaurant where they kind of cheers where everyone knows your name. And so it became much more uplifting.

[00:32:11] Yeah, it was. It was much, much better because we could both talk about our grief openly and no judgment. And I really think that's important to have a grief, a grief buddy. That, that helped me. And when I kind of reflect back on this, I see the big difference between the, the two, right? The two different, but it was so, so close to the holidays.

[00:32:39] It was like, I was, it's a fog even to this day. It's tough.

[00:32:44] Dawn: That's so tough. I mean, you had just no time to prepare for the holidays. Like you're, it was smack in the middle of the holidays, man. That's hard, but it sounds like the holidays since then have been better. Cause I get, I feel like I want us to give people hope to, I feel like I want us to validate.

[00:33:05] The first year is so hard. The second year can also be really hard, um, because, you know, but that it does get you, you get better at it, you get better at grieving, right? Wouldn't you say? 

[00:33:19] Maya: well said. Yeah, absolutely. Because like you, I have two significant ornaments on my tree for my brother. I have a big A for Andreas. I have another one with his dates, right? Of his life. And, you know, putting that up now, I really was never a fan of Christmas and now I actually really like it. Um, because I feel like I get to see those ornaments.

[00:33:45] Oh god, I did not expect to get this emotional about this, but yeah, it's getting emotional But I get to see those ornaments now and you're right like we definitely want to give hope always on the show right and I Thanksgiving was harder for me because it was so close right and that was my brother's like that was his jam That was his holiday.

[00:34:07] So that made it even harder for me because He loves food and he loves some good champagne. We all know this. So, um, that was his, that was his holiday. He really, I mean, he loved Christmas too. He loved to get presents. Gifts were definitely his love language, but he really loved Thanksgiving. He loved to eat.

[00:34:25] His first word was eat. Okay. So he loved Thanksgiving. So how did I overcome that? You know, like you said, you get better at it. Um, we started doing Friendsgiving. So there was a lot of. people around that you wanted around and were positive. Um, and it evolved every single year. And now, um, I, Thanksgiving is not my favorite holiday and I don't think it ever will be, but do I dread it now?

[00:34:51] No, absolutely not. Because I made traditions around it and also things to honor my brother. Like I always make sure we make dishes that he loved and just, it sounds simple, but it really works.

[00:35:04] Dawn: Right. Well, it feels, it feels meaningful. Like you're doing something for them and we, I don't know if you guys ever do this. We toast to my brother, like almost every family meal, but certainly on the holidays. Right. We acknowledge him and that that feels good too, to do that on Thanksgiving and Christmas and stuff like that.

[00:35:25] Wow. You know, I, I also want to put a voice to a couple of different things. One. Is that sometimes the anticipation before the holidays for some people, sometimes that actually can be harder than the day itself, which sounds crazy and maybe the day itself is really hard to, but sometimes just the anticipation is worse because I'm on the days there.

[00:35:48] Sometimes people feel like, well, everything is hard right now. Like this isn't like harder, you know, but thinking about it ahead of time. So that could happen. And also I think new years can be triggering because it represents. Yeah.

[00:36:01] For some people, oh my goodness, I'm going to go into a new year without my sibling.

[00:36:06] I don't want to do that. I can't do that. You know what I mean? So I guess I want to mention that I'm validating that, that if someone's thought that, yes, that's a thing. 

[00:36:18] Maya: It's a thing for me. It's a thing for me. I think I, I built up and I still do this. And so like us talking, I'm so glad we're talking about this because I feel like it's going to give me a new mindset. Like I'm evolving in year seven, you know, like coming up and I, I do, I, I like dread it. I'm like, Oh, Thanksgiving.

[00:36:38] I'm like, no, you have these great new traditions. Like it's okay. Honoring him. So it kind of like, and then when it actually happens. I don't want to say it's not as bad as you thought, right? Just like you're saying, but it's like, I'm sad and it's a day and I already knew this. And it's kind of like anxiety and worry, right?

[00:36:58] Like we're, we're playing these things in our head ahead of time. still tough, but it, there's hope and it's not going to be as difficult sometimes as you think. And if it is as difficult as you think, you already, you already put your, put your mind, body, soul, spirit through it. So you, you got this, like you got this.

[00:37:19] And I love what you said about New Year's too. That, for some reason, that one really kicked me. That one kicked me too. It was Thanksgiving number one. New Year's number two because I love New Year's. That's my holiday. I love New Year's. Love it, love it, love it. I love a fresh start. I love just, I love going to a great fun party or throwing the party.

[00:37:38] It's one of my favorite holidays and that was difficult, yeah, because it was going to be a year where my brother was not moving into with anyone.

[00:37:50] Dawn: I think what happens, um, after it's been a long enough time, and I don't even know if I had to say, is that at five years? Is it at ten years? I don't know, and I'm sure it's different for everybody, but what I can say, getting to almost 20 years, is that it almost ends up feeling empowering, like, almost like death didn't get to totally end, like, my relationship.

[00:38:17] Yes, I can't physically see him, and I totally miss him. And I can't hug him and that stuff. However, it didn't stop our connection. It never can. And it's almost like, fuck you. I'll do this forever, right? 30 years, 40 years, 50 years. Dare me, right? Watch me. And that feels kind of empowering to be honest. And to the point where it's like, again, my husband didn't meet my husband and my kids.

[00:38:44] We refer to him as uncle Michael, they know all about him. His pictures are up, they know his story. It's partly their story, right? And so I feel like in time when you do the grief and you do the work and maybe talk to a therapist or you tune into podcasts, you have a grief buddy, what night? You get better grieving, if you will.

[00:39:05] I really don't like that word better, but it is sort of what it feels like. And then at some point you get to a point where it feels empowering because someone, nobody can take it away from you. Right. Like, like, do you ever feel like, I don't know if you're at the point now where you feel like so confident in your connection with Andreas that like, no one can talk you out of it.

[00:39:24] No one can, they can't take it from you. 

[00:39:27] Maya: I love, I love this. No, I totally connect with this 150%. I hope you guys do as well because I hear this a lot from people like early in their grief story. And you're right, like everybody's different. Like I've met people that are experiencing the same emotions or feelings that I did. Five years in and they're 20 years in, right?

[00:39:47] I have some people that are a year into their grief journey and I'm like, wow, you're really evolved. I was not there. Right? So it's like, everybody's a little bit different, but there are some, some norms, but it is empowering. I totally know what you're saying because I feel that way. It took, for me, five years was my marker and that's going to be different for everybody.

[00:40:07] Like you said, but five years. A switch changed me. That's when I knew I was going to do this show I wanted to to carry my brother forward with me Wanted to honor him and nothing can change that now like his story is out in the universe We're connected you guys listening to us are connected to us and I think there's so much power in that I have a totally different feeling and sometimes people will ask me or maybe confuse it and say, Oh, well, okay, you're over it or you're done grieving.

[00:40:39] And that's not really the case, right? We grieve for life, but I love how you're putting this, John, because this is incredible. I do feel empowered. I feel empowered. I feel connected to him. I feel more connected to him now than sometimes, which might sound weird and a little controversial, but sometimes I feel more connected to him now than some of the times he was actually physically present on this earth, which might get a little too spiritual for some people.

[00:41:05] But it's just true because I feel like I'm doing this, this work, not only to honor him, but to help others. But, you know, I think. This is what he would have wanted. And I feel that very strongly because I almost feel like he's like pushing me and he's with me. So yeah, I, I do think through time it continues to evolve.

[00:41:26] And I, if, if someone had told me that years ago, that would have given me a lot of hope. And so I'm really glad you brought that up. Yeah.

[00:41:34] Dawn: Well, I think for some people, because I hear it with my clients, that they're scared to give up the acute grief because they think they feel like it helps them be connected to their sibling, and that if they're not grieving, crying, like feeling like they're falling apart, that somehow they're not honoring them and that they'll And I guess I want people to hear that you don't, you actually don't have to lose your connection just because you cry less or you're not grieving as hard or you even don't think about them in it for an afternoon or a day, right?

[00:42:12] That your connection is stronger than that. And so I hope that that feels helpful for people to know because we're literally living it, right? Like we're, you and I are examples of you take it one day at a time. You literally sometimes have to take it one hour at a time, but you just click, keep plugging into sources of support and you can do this.

[00:42:38] You can live with really hard loss, 

[00:42:41] Maya: Yeah, you, we're examples of that. You, you definitely can. And I think it, again, if someone had told me that I could still have this really strong connection with him, I mean, of course, would I give anything to have him sitting in this room doing a talk with me right now? Of course, but at the same point, I wish someone had said what we're talking about right now, that I can still have this connection and still keep him In my life as I continue to move forward and I connect so much with what you said about if I stop crying or if I go out in the world or if I, if I, if I, if I, if I get out of bed, if I, it's like you're holding on, but the reality is.

[00:43:24] That person is physically gone from this world. So, I, I started to realize that doing things and honoring him and giving back, like you mentioned earlier in this episode, you know, like, if you want to go on a walk or donate or sponsor a family, and I love all those ideas. I love them. I just think it's great.

[00:43:42] It doesn't... You don't have to write a book or you don't have to do a podcast. You know, like you don't have to do what's right for you in honoring, um, your sibling that you've lost. And there's so much power in that. I feel, I feel empowered doing this. And I feel him with me so strongly. And I did not expect that.

[00:44:02] So I hope that helps. You guys out there, too. 

[00:44:07] Dawn: I feel the 

[00:44:07] Maya: I'm sure you felt that way writing your book, right? I mean, didn't you?

[00:44:12] Dawn: Oh, wow. I felt well, when I found out that there still wasn't much written on sibling loss, which was shocking and like not okay. Right. Like this is like, but because the world is completely does not recognize sibling loss as a significant as it is. It's like wildly under recognized, represented, even in research, like right as a psychologist, There's very little research on the impact, which is mind blowing.

[00:44:39] And again, we need to change that. So anyone listening, right? Like if you are going to become a, whatever, a psychologist or do research, right. But whatever, like we are all a part of the change. And that's what I also love is that I've. From this experience and writing the book, I've connected with all these people and like we are changing it, right?

[00:45:00] This isn't someday somewhere, some people like we are doing that. And anyone listening can be a part of doing that. And again, that feels empowering because my hope is that it has made a difference. And I think it has. I actually think it has, there's, there's more going on. I, there were no podcasts that I could listen to.

[00:45:21] There were no Facebook groups, like there really wasn't, there was one book on sibling loss. So I think it felt like you never know how something's going to affect you. Right? Like I interviewed 14 people for the book and was so surprised, wow, this is so validating. Like I knew my experience and my clients, but it almost didn't matter if someone lost their sibling, six months or 20 years.

[00:45:48] It was so profound, like it, it impacted them so much and I think that experience felt really validating and then to have it out there and to have feedback for people to say this makes me feel less crazy. I thought I was just, you know, losing my mind and like I realize I'm grieving. That's what this is.

[00:46:07] And, and it feels nice to feel like that's helpful to people. And now I've connected with other people through it. So the whole thing has been a wildly meaningful endeavor that I definitely didn't. Expect or know what happened. Like, I didn't know I would be writing a book, but I think when you do something you're supposed to do, it just starts unfolding in front of you.

[00:46:27] It's like, here you go. And like, you get energy and you're like, how do I have energy? How am I in the zone? But I think when you're doing something you're supposed to do, you get in that like flow state. It just is. It just like works out and that's kind of what happened with that. It's been 

[00:46:46] Maya: Yeah, I, I, I love that you said that, too, because I was just chatting with, you know, I'm in, I'm in one of the studios that are recording right now, and I was just chatting with one of the tech guys that helps me set stuff up, and he was, you know, talking to me about a couple different things, and, you know, I was sharing with him.

[00:47:07] Cause he was genuinely curious. You know, he doesn't understand sibling loss. You know, most people don't unless they've gone through it. And I was sharing with him almost exactly what you said. I said, you know what? I shared my story with zero expectations. It was literally to honor my brother, and if I helped one person, connected with one person, anything like that, that was a bonus for me, right?

[00:47:28] That was a bonus. I never thought I'd be sitting here at the end of season four talking to you, right? I mean, this has been a wild journey, but the, the kind of the moral of the story here is when you are doing exactly like you said, you're doing what you're passionate about, what you're supposed to be doing.

[00:47:48] And you just kind of go in with zero expectation, but with a full open heart and fully charged and you're really into it. I mean, this really unfolded. I, I'm, I'm still shocked to this day and I feel so honored to be able to share your story. So many people's stories and so many people share their stories with me and trust us to help them along their journey.

[00:48:11] And. We know how difficult it is, so I agree. I'm so glad we brought that up because that's huge.

[00:48:19] Dawn: Absolutely. And hopefully people will use like your groups and whatnot. I can think we talked about this earlier too, that putting. You know, dedicating, I would love this episode to be totally dedicated to all of our siblings. And if people want to put their siblings names with a symbol that reminds them of their sibling, like, let's do that.

[00:48:41] Like, I really want us to be a part of, like, this is where you share your siblings name and anything special about them. Like, bring it to this pod, podcast, this group, all of that. Like, that's what this is about, right? 

[00:48:55] Maya: I agree, and that's really been part of the vision as I continue to move forward. And so when we chatted offline a little bit about this, I was like, Oh, Dawn, we're always connecting on these things. I love it. And most of you guys are in our, uh, quite a few of you are in our Facebook group. If you're not joining it, share in there.

[00:49:12] That's a place for you to share. Just like Dawn said, you know, my symbol for my brother is, a sunflower, and I'll share in the group. I'll be like, Oh, there was one sunflower shining at me today. And that's my brother. I know it's my brother, you know, um, and there's milestones, which I know we're going to chat about a little bit before we wrap everything up because As we're talking about the holidays, going into the holidays, this is such a difficult time because it's, like we said, back to back to back to back to back, right, there's different holidays, it doesn't matter what religious background, what cultural background you're from, this is, we know this, right, to be the holiday time.

[00:49:48] Once Halloween hits, it's like, it's all in your face everywhere. So, you know, I want to open up even further to what you said, Dawn, and, you know, when there's, Milestones share them. I have people um, some of you guys reach out to me and say, you know Can I share this picture or can I share my new tattoo or can I share my art?

[00:50:09] You know that I got done for my brother or my sister or can I share these necklaces? I mean, I I I just got back from a couple conferences a little while ago and some of the cool stuff that people are doing with grief and honoring their siblings. Like one, one gal, she had her, the thumbprint of her brother as a necklace.

[00:50:29] I'm like, this is beautiful stuff. Share it, right? Share it. If you're comfortable, if you're not, you can message me directly. That's totally, we all have different personalities, but I would love to see that too. I would love to see our group. are, you know, whether you're on TikTok with me or you're on Instagram or in our Facebook group, which again, we'd love for you to be there.

[00:50:49] Dawn is super active there as well. Um, share it, share it. Tell us about your favorite holiday thing that you do for your brother or sister or multi sibling. If you're multi sibling loss, if you are struggling, share it with us, tell us about your favorite memory. We want to know that's what this is about.

[00:51:06] And it makes us feel Less alone, and who knows, you might have some other siblings in the group that do something very similar, which is kind of cool, too. 

[00:51:14] Dawn: Right. Or get good ideas. Right? Like, because I feel like partly, Yeah, you get good ideas because if like you adopt this philosophy that I am going to stay connected with my brother or sister and integrate them into my life. So anything that comes up, like anything, it's like, okay, what can I do to honor them?

[00:51:33] So the group might, you might see ideas like, Oh, I like that tattoo idea or jewelry idea or a place to go to or whatever it is. Um, because even big milestones, a wedding wedding without your sibling, that's That's tough, right? That's big. And so, but if you've got this philosophy, we don't leave them out. So how do we include them?

[00:51:56] So for me personally, what we did is part of the ceremony, you know, we acknowledge thanking, well, my dad did, I think, you know, thanking all the people who came from all the, you know, did different places, um, and the family that's with us in spirit. And the names, my brother and grandparents, like. Again, we sort of have this philosophy and belief that some of our family lives here and some of our family lives in heaven, like we call it heaven, you know, and that's, that's just how it is.

[00:52:21] Right. And so that was one thing we did was acknowledging that at the ceremony, we had a table at the wedding with my brother and grandparents and my husband's grandparents pictures. flowers, candle was lit. So I know some people do like an empty chair. If that's not something we wanted to do, but maybe that's something that feels good to other people. 

[00:52:42] Maya: I've heard that from some people, too. Yeah. Mm hmm.

[00:52:46] Dawn: so graduations, or the anniversary of losing somebody, or their birthday, again if the belief is, we, they're always a part of our lives, so how do I incorporate that? Then it's a different mindset, right? It's like, let me think of ideas. We've shared a bunch of ideas on here. People could even ask a question in the group.

[00:53:07] The third anniversary is coming up. I, I want some ideas like what should I do? What could I do or whatnot? Right. Because I think again, that feels a little empowering. That part of the grief journey is how do I do it along the way? And who's going to support me in that? 

[00:53:22] Maya: Yeah. I love when people ask those questions in the group or just ask me in general when I go live or any, just any feedback or private messages. You know, I love when people, you know, ask, you know, and I'm, and I'm typically gonna say back to you, what was special to your brother? What was special to your sister?

[00:53:40] What did you two enjoy doing together? Those kinds of questions because I don't have the full answer for you. You have it within yourself. That's what I really believe because you know your relationship. You know your connection and I loved that you shared about your wedding because both of us got married after our siblings passed our brothers passed and I did not have a big wedding.

[00:54:04] I eloped. I went to the courthouse and kind of always knew that would be my vibe because I worked in the bridal industry, so not shocked about that, but I always envisioned, I even had a dream many years ago that my brother walked me down the aisle at the courthouse. So that was another reason. Isn't that trippy?

[00:54:23] I know it's really weird. 

[00:54:24] Dawn: I love that though. 

[00:54:26] Maya: isn't that, I know, fun fact there. And it was a very interesting dream. Very interesting dream. And my brother did actually pass away in the dream. So that was weird too, that I had this like Fortune telling. I don't know. I don't know. Take with it what you will. But, um, he did walk me up the steps to the courthouse.

[00:54:43] So, my husband and I went to, uh, dinner at this place that we go for our anniversary. And, you know, I had a glass of champagne out for him. That's my thing. That's his thing, you know? And, um, yeah, I mean, I, I've heard people do the, the empty chair. And I think it can be beautiful, but it has to be, be right for you.

[00:55:04] For me, it was just about... Like that my brother was approving of me and this journey and that I was I could feel him there with me that day and, and I, I did, but I feel him with me stronger now. Um, and I think again, you bring up so many different milestones, right? Like birthdays, the death anniversary can be really difficult too.

[00:55:25] And that's, that's one that I. That was probably the first milestone that I really... Our birthday's hard because I have the same birthday as my brother. So it's a bittersweet day always. But it's gotten... Again, I don't want to say better, right? It's just gotten different because... More 

[00:55:44] Dawn: Or 

[00:55:44] Maya: manageable! Because I do something for him.

[00:55:49] Dawn: Mm hmm. 

[00:55:50] Maya: Like, you're totally right. I do something for him. I know it's kind of redundant. Everyone's like, oh, you do the glass of champagne. I'm like, I do, but that was his thing. And I feel... him there. Like, I feel like I'm sitting across the table from him, and he's there. And that's, that's all you really need.

[00:56:06] Um, getting tattoos from my brother, that was really huge for me, and I said I'd never get a tattoo, and now, like, my whole side is tatted up for him. So, you know, I, you know, death changes you, and the death of your sibling really changes you, and You need to do what makes you feel connected to them, and I feel really connected to him through that, but the death anniversary, I think that's a tough one for a lot of people.

[00:56:30] That's a big milestone, and doing something super special, and I will be honest, there has not been an anniversary that has gone by so far where I haven't completely broken down and cried, but I knew that would happen, right? And I sit at the creek, where a lot of his ashes are, eat his favorite pizza, drink a little champagne, and I bring him as many sunflowers as it has been since he's passed.

[00:56:59] And... 

[00:57:00] Dawn: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. 

[00:57:01] Maya: I do. And that's you, that's an important day for me. I will not miss that day. I do not care if I have the biggest client in the world, I will not miss that day. And that's super important to me. And I think, you know, people ask me a lot, where did you come up with this? And it kind of evolved over the years.

[00:57:18] Like I always went down to that place, but like then I was and brought flowers, but I was like, no, I'm going to. bring some champs and I pour a little champs in the water for him because it's not like a swimming creek. So don't worry about that guys. 

[00:57:30] Dawn: hmm. 

[00:57:31] Maya: Um, and then I throw the flowers down and if you go on my TikTok or my Instagram, you can see videos of it and I do it and it's very spiritual because there's always one sunflower that gets stuck behind.

[00:57:43] And doesn't flow down the river. That has yet to not happen. So, 

[00:57:47] Dawn: Wow. 

[00:57:48] Maya: it's 

[00:57:48] Dawn: That one's for you. It's like, he's like, this one's for you. 

[00:57:52] Maya: I feel that way. Yeah, it, it took me a couple years to kind of get it. But I do feel like that. It's like, this is for you, Sissy. Like, here you go. Like, thanks for coming here. So, that's a big... A big, big one for me, Miles. So what about, what are the big ones for you? I mean, obviously you're coming up on the 20 year anniversary.

[00:58:11] What, are you guys going to do something

[00:58:14] Dawn: I don't know yet. I don't know. That's a really, we haven't, I don't know. gotten that far. Um, I'm sure we will to figure it out, but I think, you know, what I was thinking of while you were talking about it, is it, this reminds me of, um, how, like I always say we still have a relationship, but it has to be, it's balanced with our other relationships.

[00:58:38] Right. And so it's like, when you do that, you're prioritizing, Hey, this is his day. This is about, you know, Andreas and I, and this is what I'm going to do just as you would probably prioritize, you know, Whatever, something else with other people, like we, we figure it out. Right. And even music, we haven't talked about music at all, but I was thinking music is a great way to connect.

[00:59:03] Like, so when I want to like sometimes Michael time, or I want to feel more connected, I definitely would play certain music that reminds me of him. And so I think that's another idea for people. If they feel like, how do I get connected or how I feel more connected? Sometimes specifically playing music that they liked or reminds you of them.

[00:59:21] You know, you could be alone in your car if you want or blessed in your house or you know, but to use music As a connection or to ask for a sign because I really believe in that we can ask like, Hey, I want a sign. I miss you. I just need to, you know, get a sign from you and then be open. Right? Does someone say something that's specific? that would remind you of them?

[00:59:43] Does a song come on Pandora or the radio or Spotify or whatever that reminds you of them? It's things like that that I think can happen when you're open to it. So I couldn't leave that out. I couldn't leave music out. I 

[00:59:58] Maya: No, I love, I love the music and I love the signs because Something that happens too is a lot of people will say well, I'm not getting I'm not getting signs I'm not getting signs, but the reality is I think sometimes we have like it has to be at 501 it has to be this you know what I mean?

[01:00:16] We get too caught up in those minutiae details. And that's not how, and again, we're getting a little spiritual, but that's okay. Um, it's my belief too. That's not how it works, right? You're going to get the sign or get the song or get the phrase, or like sometimes you, you kind of, uh, said a little bit of this.

[01:00:35] I think someone will walk up and say something to me when I'm like, Oh, I'm like, Andreas, I'm having a really rough day. Like I, I need a wit like my. How I talk to emails. I need a little bit of a win today and I'll get like an email from a client or a call and be like, you just killed it. Thank you. You know what I mean?

[01:00:50] Stuff like that. And I didn't. See that as signs before but they are they really they are and you can believe what you want to believe That's that's my thing and that's what I believe and the music is huge. That was an evolution for me I love that you brought that up because I couldn't handle it. I would get signs from my brother.

[01:01:11] So it's Goo Goo Dolls is the music for my brother because that's from when we were like kids and Like Goo Goo Dolls like haven't really come. I'm not hating on you guys. Love you guys, but They haven't come out with anything in a long time. And so They would come on the radio like a lot in the first year and I couldn't listen to it.

[01:01:32] I was like, okay, that's a sign, but now I can listen to it. And sometimes I'll cry, but it's like, I know that that's. A song or, you know, Iris, like a slide, couple of them are songs that I can go to and now I might cry a little but I smile because I remember my brother and I doing like dance routines to it and things like that.

[01:01:50] So I think Music is very powerful. Very powerful.

[01:01:55] Dawn: Right. Well, and I think what we're also saying too is that there is joy again, and there is happiness and there is hope. And to also not feel bad when you feel that, and to even do things to cultivate that, because that might be where you feel more connection when you cultivate stuff like that. Right.

[01:02:15] Which feels like the opposite of grief, but. It's not like it's about love and we're talking about love, right? And love and connection. And, and so, yeah, I would love I'm actually hope I want to get feedback on what people's takeaways are from what we're talking about, like if people got ideas or, you know, something that they're going to, you know.

[01:02:37] Implement this holiday season. It would be kind of cool to hear what people want to do And also I just have to say I know a lot of people are just listening to this You're not going to see but there are there is a video and some people are going to see a video And it.

[01:02:49] looks like i'm wearing pajamas right now, right because I specifically wanted to wear holiday attire So i'm going to stand up for anyone who can see like see holiday like little skirt looks like a candy cane skirt.

[01:03:01] Um,

[01:03:02] Maya: So cute. It's so cute. I love 

[01:03:05] Dawn: shirt says be your best self elf kind of thing got it. from old Navy. And, you know, because again, like we were here, I believe we're here for a reason. God only knows what that is sometimes. And life is really hard sometimes, right? But, but we have this opportunity and, and I'm always one that is going to want to try to make the most of it.

[01:03:28] And, and even with grief, right. That we do that with the love of our siblings, always, always with us and a part of that. and a part of our life. And my hope is people get encouraged that you learn how to do that in a way that doesn't always feel hard and hurtful. You get better at doing that. You get ideas from listening to other people, right?

[01:03:52] The longer you do this and to give yourself grace because the holidays are a tough time in the grief journey, but it's not impossible and you'll get through it and you'll get through it with your sibling. Not without. I, mean, it's different. They're not physically here, but the love is always there. It just

[01:04:16] Maya: I, that really resonates a lot with me, Dawn. Yeah. Because I, my first Thanksgiving, my first Christmas, my first, the first, you know, that we talk about a lot, right. Those milestones, the holidays, you know, I was thinking of it differently than what we're talking about today. I was thinking about it, like, I'm never going to have a Thanksgiving with him again.

[01:04:39] I'm never going to have a Christmas with him again. We'll never celebrate our birthday together ever again. I now have this. new milestone date in my life, which is his death anniversary, you know, like, and he's not here. That's a reminder of that. But as, as I continue to move through my grief journey, it's exactly what you said.

[01:04:57] My mindset completely shifted because I started to realize, yes, he's not physically here, but he can come with me. And how am I going to honor him and keep him a part of these Really important milestones, holidays, whether it's your, like you said, like a wedding, having children, right? I mean, you've, your daughter is named after your, your brother, you know, that's bringing him with you.

[01:05:24] Yes. And so I just, again, you know, my nephew, you know, his middle name is my, my brother's name. So again, he's, you know, I'm very close with my youngest sister. And that's so special to me. And I, I feel like he's coming along with us because of that. He has some of my. You know brothers like clothes and toys and so there's ways to do this and I want to say one more thing too about this because I Have a lot of people that say this don't I'm sure you've heard this too working For for such a long time in the grief space and also grieving for 20 years your brother But people will say to me sometimes like oh my gosh Maya like I love I love what you do on his you know for your birthday or death anniversary or You know, Christmas, Thanksgiving, things like that, right?

[01:06:10] They're like, but I am working that day and I don't, like, it does not have to be, you don't have to go as off, off the board as I do, right? Out there as me. It's just, that's something that I know I need. So I need to prioritize that. But we do, we're living, we're physically here, right? So we do have jobs and we have kids and we have husbands and wives and, you know, life.

[01:06:33] So that rhyme. But yeah, I mean. So life happens. So it might be something as simple as just every single year you do this on that day or, you know, you just sit with it for a minute or you, you know, go out in your backyard and plan something for them. I mean, it can be something simple, just knowing that you're.

[01:06:54] Carrying and not forgetting them really changes your whole mindset because I was so scared. I was going to forget my brother and you're right. I was holding on to feeling pain and being sad and being angry was my big one as we all know. So I think once that mindset shift happened with lots of therapy, lots of support and then being a part of this community and meeting all of you guys, it, It can happen and it doesn't have to be something huge like you don't have to like put a banner in the sky for them or anything like that.

[01:07:24] It's something that will connect you.

[01:07:25] Dawn: Agreed. And I think posting sometimes can do that, right? Just posting a picture of them or their favorite song or, and, and that I think is a nice way people can engage with posts in a way that they seem more comfortable than in real life. Like. And so some of them still say, Oh, you.

[01:07:41] know, I miss them too, or love them sending you love.

[01:07:43] Like they engage with you and it feels like, again, energy, you're putting energy out there. I'm remembering them. I'm honoring them. And other people are doing the same. And I feel like that's always been helpful. I think we've put my sister and I have posted every birthday, every anniversary, every memorial that, you know, um, and again, if people don't feel comfortable doing that in other groups that they're in, they could do in our group.

[01:08:09] That's what, that's what this is for too. Right. Do it here. So 

[01:08:14] Maya: it's a very safe group and I did that on purpose. I made sure there's a reason you answer questions when you come in the group, right? I want it to be a really safe space for siblings and It will continue to be. And so we, yes, we want to hear your feedback, right? Dawn, we want to hear from you guys. We want, you know, if you're not comfortable sharing in the group, you can send me a DM and, you know, I'll share it with Dawn or you can reach out.

[01:08:38] We're going to talk about that in a second. And, you know, I think we want you to share, we want you to feel safe in sharing because there is something really powerful in posting and sharing your good days and your bad days and the things that you are doing and how you're honoring them. how they are moving forward in life with you.

[01:08:55] I think it's really important. So yeah. And we want feedback. What are some cool things that you're going to do for them? Like, did you get any ideas? Absolutely. We want you to share that with us. 

[01:09:03] Dawn: yeah, I love it. 

[01:09:05] Maya: So I have a question for you, Dawn, before we wrap up. And of course, anything else you want to add before we wrap our episode?

[01:09:12] I don't know if we talked about this, so I want to give a little bonus from, again, if you guys want to listen to Dawn's full story, season two, episode one, it's fabulous episode. Um, I have to brag on Dawn a little bit. That is our top interview episode ever listened to. So congratulations on that, Dawn. Yes, I have to brag on her.

[01:09:29] She's amazing. But I wanted to ask you this, because I don't know if we talked about this, and I don't know if I've ever asked you this, but I love your book title, Surviving Sibling Loss, but the second part of it I absolutely love, but I want to know, how did you come up with this? The invisible thread that connects us through life and death, I feel like it's really applicable to what we've been talking about today.

[01:09:50] When you wrote that as like the second part of What did that mean to you? And how did you come up with that? Because I want to give a little bonus here for everyone because I loved that. I connected with it, but I think it's like anything in art, right? It can mean something to me and it might mean something different to the actual artist that wrote it.

[01:10:08] So what does, what did that mean to you when you came up with that? 

[01:10:11] Dawn: that? is a good question. I don't remember what made me come up with it. But what comes to mind for me is I've always said that I wish you could see energy. Like, you know, when you connect with someone and you're like, Oh, I feel like we're on the same page or, you know, or not. Right. And then I almost wish you could see the color.

[01:10:28] Like, let's say connection was purple, there'd be like, duh, no wonder why I feel connected look purples everywhere. Or if it's like, no connection, like It's very gray or black, or, you know, that would feel validating. Right. And I think about attachment, that whether we are close, far apart, I mean, right now, you and I are on opposite coasts.

[01:10:47] You're Georgia, correct? I'm in California, but we're totally, we're so connected and have been, and we've never even been in the same state together. 

[01:10:57] Maya: It's crazy. I can't even comprehend that sometimes. I'm like, how? Because we're so connected. 

[01:11:01] Dawn: Right, so I think I think of that as like threads that would connect something, but they're invisible, so we don't see them. Uh, but just because we don't see them doesn't mean that they're not really there. Just like they're siblings, just like a lot of things, just because we don't see it doesn't mean it's not there.

[01:11:19] So, I guess. 

[01:11:20] Maya: That's why I had to bring this up. Yes, because I feel like that's what we've been talking about as well as the milestones and holidays. And, you know, I, that's how I interpreted it too, of course, because we're connected. And I hope, I hope you guys can connect with that as well, because I do, it really is.

[01:11:36] It's this invisible thread that I think it's become such a big meaning for me, that, that part of your title, because it's not just my connection to my brother that continues. It's my connection to you, like you said, but my connection to all of you listening and everyone that I've met now out at conferences, thank God we're back in person.

[01:11:54] Um, those of you who I meet on TikTok, on Instagram, in our group, it's, we all have this invisible thread connecting us. So I wanted to ask you that as a little bonus. So I, I just loved that. Um, well, we are very festive today with Dawn's holiday outfit. So if you guys are listening to this right before the holidays.

[01:12:15] We want to wish you happy holidays and also to your, your sibling and hopefully that you find a way from this episode to honor them in a way that's special for you and for them.

[01:12:26] Dawn: absolutely. And we'd love for you to share their names or something that reminds you of them. This is for them. This is for you. We are sending so much love and getting through the holidays. We're here

[01:12:38] Maya: And one way that you could absolutely, and one way you can connect is obviously your book. If you have not read Dawn's book, Dawn, tell us a little bit about your book, where they can find it. Obviously they'll find it on my website too. And, um, how they can connect with you.

[01:12:55] Dawn: So it's on Amazon. It's an Audible, Kindle, Barnes and Noble. I don't know. I feel like there's iTunes. Like there's all these different, every, I specifically made it to be available in every. Uh, format, um, that people need or prefer. So it should be available everywhere. And I would say emailing me if people wanted to actually reach out is probably the best way I have a website.

[01:13:22] Uh, but if you could put my email, maybe in the show notes, well, dr. Don D. Raimondo. com, uh, or at Gmail, um, it's my email and my website. Same name, but and hopefully, Yeah,

[01:13:38] people can check out the book again. I interviewed 14 other people. So it's other people's stories, too So my hope is that if you don't connect just with mine, you'll connect with theirs and I have a whole chapter on the most helpful things we did so it gives you ideas of how to honor your siblings and Thank you again for having me here Maya.

[01:13:57] It's always good to 

[01:13:57] Maya: And you're in the group, of course, let's not forget that. So you can always find Dawn right in our group too, but yes. So we'll put your email in the show notes and this has been so fun. I'm so glad you came back to do this episode and. I really hope this helps all of you during a really difficult time because, as we said, the holidays can be difficult already, right?

[01:14:19] We've got a lot of family dynamics that are going on usually, right? And to add loss into the equation is difficult, so hopefully we can give you some great ideas. To be able to move forward with your sibling. So I'm going to wish you a happy holidays, Dawn. 

[01:14:34] Dawn: holidays Absolutely. Happy holidays Thank you Maya for having this And I just wish everybody the best. 

[01:14:43] Maya: Yes. All right. We look forward to hearing feedback. We want to hear your feedback. We want to see your posts about what you're doing for the holidays and honoring your sibling. And again, happy holidays, Dawn. Thank you so much for being here. And thank you guys so much for listening to the surviving siblings podcast. 

[01:14:58] Dawn: Thank you, Maya.

[01:14:59]