Confronting a Sisters Addiction

0:00:10 - Maya

Hey guys, welcome back to the Surviving Siblings podcast. Today I have, of course, another surviving sibling with me. Her name is Julia. Julia, thanks so much for joining us, hey, thank you for having me.

0:00:24 - Julia

I'm very happy to be here. It's a weird thing to say, but nice to have you.

0:00:28 - Maya

Yeah, it's bittersweet, right? That's what I say, I think, at the beginning of most episodes. I'm so excited to meet another surviving sibling, I'm so excited to have you share your story and be open and raw with us. But meeting under these circumstances is never fun, right? Exactly Not the best club to be a part of, no, exactly it's the worst club ever, for sure. So, julia, if you will tell us a little bit about we're here to talk about your journey and, of course, your beautiful sister, rihanna, so can you tell us a little bit about your background, your relationship, and we'll go from there.

0:01:04 - Julia

Yeah, so I am one of three, three daughters. So Rihanna is the youngest, I'm the middle child and then my older sister, corinda. We grew up in northern Virginia so, like right outside of DC, my parents, my mom, my dad, they split up. I, when I was preschool, I want to say so, it was something that just that was normal. I thought it was cool having two houses, I remember, and also I guess it was strange, like when I had had friends that, oh, both your parents live in the same house. That's different. So, yeah, so they they split up.

Um, my mom got remarried to my stepdad when I was eight, so he's been, um, a part of our lives forever, essentially, um, so, yeah, I mean we, you know my parents. I will say they did a really good job um, co-parenting, um, you know, they split custody, even though my mom and my dad's relationship was very tumultuous. Um, my dad was a big drinker, um, he was an alcoholic. He was physically, verbally abusive to my mom, um, and also, well, verbally, not so much physical abuse with us, but just a very loud, very loud dude. And my parents lived pretty much our whole lives two blocks from each other. So I think it was very easy for us to. Oh, one says, no, okay, I'm just gonna go to dad's house. Or oh, dad said no, I'm gonna go to mom's house, gonna go to dad's house. Or oh, dad said no, gonna go to mom's house. Um, so yeah, that was kind of our, I guess, upbringing.

0:02:54 - Maya

I mean, I guess family wise, um, and yeah, I'm trying to trying to think, yeah, I just have to like jump because I'm a product of divorce too. And so it was actually really ironic because I was speaking to my youngest sister last night and she was talking about a situation, you know, with her own friend and dealing with their kids. And it's interesting because her and I were like, yeah, it's totally normal, like when you're young, to be like, oh, mom says, now I'm going to go to dad, like, so we were just talking about that last night. I think a lot of people, well, you guys will connect with that. I'm sure it's, being a product of divorce is a common thing these days, unfortunately. But yeah, yeah, so that sounds tough.

I can relate to a lot of your story already with that, and I'm one of three girls as well, but I had a brother, of course, you know. Yeah, but so tell us a little bit about your relationship with Rihanna. What was that like? So she's the baby, so what was that like? So she's the baby, so what was that like in your kind of you guys growing up and kind of bring us into you know, obviously, the years we're going to talk about where she struggled, yeah yeah, yeah, I mean I think I think all three of us, right like me and my two sisters, all three of us definitely played our role to a tee.

0:04:03 - Julia

Um Corinda, you know she's still. You just look at her and you can tell she's the older child. You know, just very like logical and like you know, let's think about this, let's make a plan Like the steps we're going to take to get there. I'm sort of more of the, you know, all over the place. Uh, you know, typical middle child, felt, you know, slighted and didn't really have you know sort of the little person years because rihanna came. Rihanna and I are 21 months apart, so, um, she came pretty quick, um, after me. So I think you know me being the middle child and having a baby come in so soon was probably something to do with the strange relationship me and my mother have had my entire life. Maybe, maybe, um, and then Rihanna, the baby, you know, kind of gets away with everything.

0:04:57 - Maya

Uh, you know makes mistakes, but it's okay, it's gonna be fine, because your parents have already been through it before. So they're like okay, that's fine, it's not a big deal, like I'm the oldest. So like when the oldest goes through it, it's like the end of the world. So yeah, you're right, the baby gets away with everything for sure.

0:05:17 - Julia

Yeah, yeah, Corinda is like all of her. You know teenage year things that she went through, you know, and then I think my parents felt more prepared when I went through it and really kind of pushed the limits a lot of times as a teenager me and I think with Rihanna they were like well, she's not as bad as Julia was.

0:05:36 - Maya

So you know it's fine yeah, I think a lot of people can relate to that. Yeah, I mean it's interesting, yeah, and and the order and you had her come along so quickly afterwards. It's kind of all you've known is having a younger sister right as well.

0:05:50 - Julia

So um, so yeah, and I mean in our, in our relationship. I mean the three of us, you know we, I think, very typical sisters. You know, like we had our good days and we had our bad days, but at the end of the day, like you, you know, we were always there for each other, that's for sure. You know, I might be able to make fun of my little sister, but you know, if anybody else does it like we're going to have problems.

0:06:14 - Maya

Oh yeah for sure, you know I think we were.

0:06:16 - Julia

We've all always been very good defenders of each other and supportive of each other, so yeah, yeah, I can relate other and supportive of each other.

0:06:28 - Maya

So, yeah, yeah, I can relate, definitely. Yes, yeah, I think that's a common thing among siblings, and especially like the sisterly bonds too, when it's like, you know, I can steal your clothes and pull your hair and say whatever I want about you, but no one else better touch you or do anything to you, right, yeah, yeah, I connect with that. So tell us a little bit about what transpired with Rihanna, because we on this episode are obviously going to talk about her overdose and that's a really difficult topic. But a lot of our listeners, a lot of you guys, will relate to this story, julia, and it's an important one to talk about and it's always interesting to hear kind of how someone evolves down this path, right, and some of us, you know, make it through recovery. We make it to the other side. Some of us have, you know, unfortunate, you know, stories like this. So I'm curious if you could kind of walk us through Rihanna's journey and your experience as her sister.

0:07:24 - Julia

Yeah, yeah, you know, like I mentioned, you know I had some pretty off years as a teenager, so probably didn't set the best example. I personally just have never been a drug user. That just has never been my thing. When I was a teenager it was, you know, I was drinking with friends, I was out partying late, like that sort of thing, and you know, with Rihanna I mean. So Rihanna, she very loud, outspoken, friendly, loyal, like most loyal friend you could probably have. She had a very tight knit group of girlfriends. Um, they called themselves the gills, a girl without an r why did you ever ask her?

0:08:11 - Maya

why, like, that's an interesting nickname, yeah, that's a, really good question. Yeah, it's really cool when I like have you guys on because it makes, and like it's interesting when I go on other shows too, because people ask me questions. I'm like actually I never thought of that before, like why, why did they do that or why did they call themselves that right?

0:08:30 - Julia

so yeah, and to be honest with you, yeah, I'll have to ask her, her friend Courtney um, because I'm very close with her friend Courtney um, still to the same. But um, yeah, I kind of always thought that it was just I don't know, somebody just misspelled girls and then they just kind of went with it because that was just kind of those, yeah, the girls they were. But, um, but yeah, so she kind of had this really tight knit group of girlfriends, um, five, five of them, um, and yeah, I mean she she was, she was a really good friend. Um, she didn't care much for like school or like really attention to detail. She lacked a lot of like common sense, like street smarts, if you will. So, but you know, she did okay in school and went through school fine, you know, and I think she started, you know, doing the typical high school partying with friends, drinking, you know, maybe smoking marijuana, you know, I never really heard of anything, you know, her doing any harder drugs, you know, until she was like out of high school. But yeah, I mean, I think she, you know, I think she kind of struggled a little bit too with just like self-esteem and again, she had this close knit group of friends. But I think sometimes she, you know, kind of worried about how she was perceived and you know, I remember her telling me stories of like, oh, this person was mean to me, or this person started to remember about me, um, so, yeah, I mean, I think, you know, I think, like a lot of people, I think she kind of used alcohol and drugs sort of, as you know that, like social lubricant, if you will.

Um, so she, you know, she got into college, um, at BCU, uh, in Virginia Commonwealth University. You know she went there and she didn't really have much of an idea, I think, at first, like really what she wanted to do. It was like interesting because and I'm not sure if this is correct, but I feel like she was sort of maybe wanting to take the track that, like our older sister had taken, our older sister was also at VCU, maybe wanting to take the track that, like our older sister had taken, our older sister was also at VCU, um, and then at some point, like maybe two years in, she decided to go um, change her major to social work, um, which is what I had done, um, so I had like my bachelor's and master's in social work, um, and I just I thought it was like adorable. I was like, oh, like, sister, you're gonna, of course, following my footsteps you know, very, very cute.

Um, you know, I kind of I remember like having the conversation with her too.

0:11:11 - Maya

Like you know, you can do whatever you want to do, right, like you don't have to, you know, not copy, you know your sisters or whatever, but like, make sure you know, make sure it's what you really want to do you know right, like make sure you're, if you're doing it you're inspired by me and like you want me to mentor you in that kind of way, but don't do it just because, like, okay, she did it, so this is the right thing to do. That's a good big sister talk for sure.

0:11:35 - Julia

Yeah yeah, yeah, um, you know, and I think she liked it. I think, I think Rihanna, she was really good with kids. Um, you know, I wouldn't necessarily have like trusted her with children at that time, but she was like bent, she's just like a very playful person. You know, like I remember her going on these mission trips um with our church when I was studying middle school, with her best friend, rachel um, and they did a lot of activities with kids and like these pictures and it's just like, oh my gosh, like you have this like maternal aspect in these pictures. Um, you know, and she always joke like, yeah, no, thanks, no, kids right now.

Yeah, um, but yeah, so I mean, you know, I think, like I said, you know experiments in high school and then went to V Again, like our older sister was there living off campus in her own apartment with her friends and I think they were only at school together for a year or so, I want to say before my older sister graduated. But yeah, I mean, I think VCU Richmond, you know, I don't know if you're familiar, but it has a rap right for drug use and partying and that sort of thing.

0:12:51 - Speaker 3

We hope you're enjoying this incredible episode of the Surviving Siblings podcast. I'm your host, maya Roffler. We'll be back in just a minute after hearing from our incredible sponsor. Are you feeling lost in your grief journey, perhaps even stuck? As a surviving sibling, I, too, have felt lost, stuck, confused, angry. Well, fill in the blank, I felt so many emotions along my grief journey I'm sure you know exactly what I'm talking about too. Along the way, I found that what I needed was answers to all of my unanswered questions, validation, permission to feel everything that I was feeling at different times, and ultimately, I needed guidance. That's why I created the Grief Guide for Surviving Siblings. This is a 23-page guide that guides you, the surviving sibling, along your grief journey, written and created by a surviving sibling for surviving siblings. Click the link in the show notes to get your copy, or visit thesurvivingsiblingscom, where you can also find more show information, merchandise for surviving siblings like you, and more resources and support.

0:14:10 - Julia

This is also like kind of right around like her, kind of like rave, sort of dubstep days, if you will, like festivals, that kind of thing, kind of thing. So I think you know she and her friends were sort of starting to experiment right with things that were outside the sort of normal scope of just like drinking or just smoking marijuana or whatever. So you know, and I think I think she did a really good job too of like, you know, not making it her complete image, right, like that. You know, I think it was very sort of like a prided thing, right. She did with, like specific friends, you know, at specific places, specific parties, you know, I don't, you know, I don't think, and again, I don't know, you know, I don't think she was an everyday user, at least I don't think so.

I don't think she was an everyday user, at least I don't think so I don't really know, because she didn't really disclose that. And again, if she was using everyday, she was doing a very good job of hiding that from me because, again, you know, me and my older sister, karina, we were both we're all very close, I mean, especially once we kind of got past high school and we were in college and when I graduated, you know, like we were just forming that adult, you know.

0:15:30 - Maya

Yes, I think a lot, a lot of people relate to that, julia, because when you leave the house and you leave the dynamics of, like middle school, high school and like where you're having to share a school or maybe friends, or like you know, you create more of your own identity and I think that makes it easier in some ways to kind of reconcile anything from the past and also move forward and, like you have your own identities, even if you are going to the same school or something like, still you have your own friend groups. You're in different places. Like beginning of college is totally different than the end of college to your point, right, with you, both your sisters, it's just different, right, different experience. Yeah, but I think, um, you know it's interesting because this is kind of a common story of how it starts right, like you go and you've experimented, and then you start to get into these types of lifestyles and I'm I'm like you, julia, I was not like a good kid, I was definitely a drinker.

I definitely did drugs in high school, definitely did things. Um, and then it was weird when I went to college, that good kid, I was definitely a drinker, I definitely did drugs in high school, I definitely did things, and then it was weird when I went to college that all stopped. But I've watched a lot of people progress. I drank a lot in college. I mean I went to a party school too. So, yeah, like they did.

But I think it's fascinating because you watch people that sometimes dabble in high school and then once they get to college, away from kind of parents or any supervision, that's when things can start to happen. And, like you said, you guys were able to, you know, continue a great relationship. But you're also living your individual life, so you're not really sure what's going on. So did you know what type of drug use was happening? Did you know what she was doing? I mean, typically, I remember, you know, when I went back to raves and stuff, like back in the day it was ecstasy, cocaine, things like that. But that evolved, you know, like now it's a totally different ballgame. I mean it's anything from you know meth to I mean it's all over the place. And obviously fentanyl is the big thing today. Right, that's happening.

So, do you know what she was using or what was going on, or or did that just come to light later?

0:17:27 - Julia

Yeah, I mean so mainly it came to light later. I mean, you know, there were a lot of like just questionable circumstances, like you know, and just the social media becoming when it came, like you know she would. You know I'd get like snapchats. You know, I remember, like the last year that she was alive um, we haven't gotten into this yet, but like I had moved to Chicago, right, so I wasn't even anywhere close to home. She was, you know, back home, living with my parents in northern Virginia.

But yeah, I mean I would get Snapchats and just like videos where it's just like not there, you know, I mean I don't know, so I could always speculate. You know, like, okay, she's clearly taking a benzo or it's like Xanax or something along those lines, you know, and she had disclosed to me before that you know she'd tried ecstasy, she'd tried cocaine, you know, with friends, and oh, we just tried it and I'm like, okay, that's the slippery slope, like be careful. Um, so, but yeah, I mean nothing. Um, I mean, according to her like and when, I would drill her and ask her questions, you know it was never like hard stuff, like heroin or or meth or anything like that, but you know, it's more like pills and that type of thing so right, right, which aligns with her going to like festivals and things like that, because I lived that scene a long time, 20 years ago, really dating myself.

0:18:53 - Maya

But now, like everything that goes on now, I'm like god, it's just so scary, like I think god all the time. I'm like oh gosh, because it was a different world back then. I don't want to say it was safer to experiment, but there wasn't the things going around then that there are now. So walk us through that. So you moved to Chicago, so that that's part of your journey, but she, so she leaves college and she goes home. She moves home with your parents, right? That's kind of what happened.

0:19:22 - Julia

Yeah, yeah so, and I was like kind of going through, like just in my head, like trying to remember like certain details. But yeah, so, 2014,. You know, the year before she passed, she, like I said, she had just switched her major recently to social work and with social work you your, you know, junior or senior year, you have a field placement, so it's essentially like an unpaid job, but like you have to go and you have to do it, like it's part of your credit for the program, right? And so I remember she had this practicum and she had just started it. I think it was like a school or a school program. It was something with kids. It was like a school or a school program. It was something with kids.

Um and um, I don't know.

The story she gave us is that she was there one day and I guess, like the boss left like early or something, and Rihanna was supposed to stay until whatever time, and I guess the boss person or the person in charge had left and Rihanna just decided to leave and then, I guess I don't know if it was same day or next day they found out and so she was terminated from her practicum, which you know is, you know, not abnormal.

I mean, you know she probably could have tried to like appeal or, you know, find another practicum, but anyways, um, so, yeah, because of that, she essentially and again, I can't recall exactly but whether she was asked to leave the program or if she was kicked out of the social work program at VCU, but whatever it was she left school, um, and, yeah, she moved back in to my mom and stepdad's house, like our childhood home that we had grown up in, um, so she was back in, um, you know, arlington, living um got a job at like a local brewery, um food place, and so she was really just kind of working part-time and you know, I guess, I think I know her words were just like I'm just trying to get my life back together, right, um, and I think her ultimate goal was to um get to a place where she could transfer her credits from VCU to like go to the local college here, um, that I don't think ever, really ever panned out, but like that was sort of her like plan, like this was what's going to happen, like soon, someday, soon, um, so so, yeah, I mean, she was just like living at my parents, um, you know, and I, I think my mom, um, you know, tried to place certain restrictions and things on her to sort of like, keep her in line and, like you know, can't just live here for free.

You know, like you still need to be a responsible adult, um, so I don't know, my mom always had this weird rule like if you move back in as an adult, like you're gonna have a curfew again, which, like I've heard of that.

0:22:19 - Maya

I've heard of that from parents before.

0:22:20 - Julia

Yeah, I've heard of that, yeah, like, and my mom's always said that it's just like uh, I guess what is it like? If you're not living here, then I don't have anything to worry about, but if you're living here, then I know what time you're coming in and I'm worried about you.

0:22:32 - Speaker 3

I mean.

0:22:33 - Maya

I kind of get it. I get it yeah. I get it and also, it's your house, right, it's your house and you know if you, you know if your parents go to bed at a certain time and they don't, I mean I get it, I get it, yeah, yeah.

0:22:44 - Julia

So I mean, you know, I think they just, you know, they just struggled a lot with that because, you know, I think grata just wasn't really I'm sure she wasn't following the rules, right yeah yeah, yeah so she's she getting in with like because she's working, but she's kind of.

0:23:01 - Maya

I mean, when you go through something like that and I'm sure a lot of you guys listening have been through that or had a sibling or someone, we've all gone through those transitional periods Sometimes you just feel lost. You feel a little lost and I'm sure that's what she was going through.

0:23:13 - Julia

Yeah, yeah, and I mean you know, and going back to, like her, really good girlfriends like the Gil, you know. I think most of them, you know, were local and back home. I think a couple of them they were like still in college. It was taking them a little bit longer than you know, just the straight four years or whatever. So you know, she did kind of have those like support people around. But you know, I think a lot of the people she was hanging out with were, you know, semi newer friendships that were, you know, I don't think, the most positive thing in the world, right, I mean people that are supplying her with different kinds of drugs you know, oh, let's try, let's test this out, you know, type of thing. So yeah, I mean, she got close, I think, with just too many people that you know were dealing drugs or you know using them regularly, um, so I think that sort of just became, you know, a regular kind of thing for her. But again, she, you know, definitely was hiding it very well.

0:24:18 - Maya

I mean, we right, you would just see a snapchat here and you're like you don't look like yourself, you look a little checked out, like so you and she's living at home and meanwhile she's hanging out with these people, and I think this is probably a really important part of your story and rihanna's story is, you know, if you think something, it's probably happening, right, so it's, you know, hindsight's always 2020, but if you see those signs which you were seeing, some of them, I think that's the hard part. That's the really hard part about drug use, right? Is people tend to hide it. So kind of, walk us, start walking us, like up to the day when all of this happened, because she's obviously using and you guys, you know, aren't really sure what it is, and you're in Chicago at this time, right, so tell us a little bit about.

you know, aren't really sure what it is and you're in Chicago at this time, right, so tell us a little bit about you know, kind of walk us up to that experience, the horrible day that you lost, rihanna.

0:25:10 - Julia

Yeah, yeah. So I, so my husband, I we moved to Chicago in April 2014. The holidays, Christmas, big deal, my family like just big deal, um, and I could not imagine, like you know, I think leading up to it, I was like you know, it's fine, like we'll do Chicago Christmas here, me and my husband, it'll be great. Um, but like kind of going up to Christmas, I was like no, this doesn't feel right.

So you changed your mind, yeah yeah, so we, like me and my sisters, concocted this whole plan where, you know, dan and I were gonna, my husband and I were gonna fly home for Christmas and like surprise my mom, because my mom was also just like so sad that I was not gonna be, like it was gonna be my first Christmas away from home, yeah, um. So, yeah, we, you know, did that. We flew home, we surprised my mom. It was adorable, um, and then my husband and I we stayed at my parents house, um, you know, while we were visiting and being friends and catching up with people, whatever, um, and yeah, new year's. So, you know, and I had always I mean, at this point, you know, rihanna had Latch College Bathsleeve, whatever it was, um, I can't remember, I think it was before or right after, at some point before she had like just totaled her car, which was like super concerning to me, you know, and I know my parents were concerned too, but I think they were just sort of, you know, it's like, what else can we do? You know, and you know I understand and can see that frustration and I mean, my two daughters are much younger right now, but I know what's coming. So, you know, we stayed there over Christmas and then it's the New Year's Eve.

We, my husband and I, we went to a friend's party, like, came home like shortly after midnight, came back and my parents were up still, rihanna was like sitting on their couch and, like you know, she like I thought maybe she was just tired, maybe she drank a little too much, um, but then like she was very clearly like just like nodding off, like I know what that looks like, right, and so I like said that to my parents. I was like hey, like what's going on over here, anybody else see this? They're like hey, like what's going on over here, anybody else see this? They're like, am I crazy, you know? And they sort of were just like oh, like it's fine, she was just at a party with her friends. Leave her alone, julia, you know, like that kind of thing.

Because I was just very like hypervigilant about that stuff. So that sort of continued on. I was very concerned, concerned, like I kept telling my husband like we didn't have a car there. I was like, you know, I don't know, I'm like worried because I don't know what she's taken, you know, the hospital's, like down the street, like it would be so easy, even if we had to like get an uber, which, like uber, was a new thing at around that time back then so true right to think about that.

0:28:01 - Maya

Uber was new like 10 years, like not even 10 years ago. It's crazy.

0:28:04 - Julia

Yeah, I know.

0:28:17 - Maya

Really just like in perspective. So okay.

0:28:19 - Julia

So you guys are like, is no one like jumping into action with you, like you're the one? It was a huge source of contention, I think for a very long time. But you know, for me, sort of my breaking point that night was, you know, she was nodding off. I was like, okay, like she's just gonna go to sleep, whatever. And then at one point she got up, went down to her room and I was like, okay, well, I'm gonna follow her to her room and I was like, okay, well, I'm gonna follow her.

That happened, so I followed her downstairs and like in whatever stupor like state she was in, she was literally like trying to crush up whatever pills they were, crush up more pills and have like a whole little thing you know, to like snort the drugs and everything. So I'm like watching her and I like take it from her and I'm like what is going on? Like I don't know. I sort of went almost like full like mom mode, if you will, like I don't know, yeah, and I like I just like I looked like right to the right of like her desk, where that was sitting, and I like just like looked in her trash can and just saw like baggies and like powder residue like in the back, like very clear, like it's.

You don't have to be, like you know, a rocket scientist. Like just kind of look around and see, like okay, like things aren't, things are not well here, like this is not good, um. So anyways, I like I took, you know, the book with the powder and the stuff upstairs to my parents. I was, like you guys, like she just went downstairs and I followed her because I'm worried about her and I just followed her and she's trying to literally snort up or snort up, crush up more pills to snort, and my parents are just sort of like, oh weird. And I'm like, yeah, this isn't like, I'm not like okay with this, I'm shaking you guys.

0:30:08 - Maya

What is going on, wow?

0:30:10 - Julia

I'm not, I'm not really sure, uh, like what we're doing here, but like we don't know what these souls are, you know. And fentanyl was just sort of starting to become a thing, yep, right, um, so there was like a little awareness, but it's nowhere, like it is now, as far as, like the rest not at all.

2014, 2015, absolutely not yeah, no, like 2015, like in arlington county, like where we grew up and you know, rihanna was still living in arlington, so, but in 2015 I think there were two or three like at least reported deaths by overdose, which means Rihanna is one of those like two or three people.

0:30:49 - Maya

I see.

0:30:49 - Julia

And then 2016,. They jumped like astronaut, like hundreds, like not hundreds, but like a hundred, something I believe. I haven't looked at like that data in a while, but yeah, I mean it's crazy. I mean it just became a complete like epidemic, but but yeah, so I was sort of greeted with that and it was sort of this you know, what are we going to do? Like, we're going to get her in trouble. She's going to go to jail. And I was like trying so hard, right. I mean, like at this point it's like one o'clock in the morning, right, my parents have been drinking. I had had something to drink at the party too that I went to with my husband, rihanna's, over here, like nodding off on we don't know. So, you know, I'm just like trying to explain to them like that's not how this works, right, like I worked with clients with drug addiction. If you go and seek help at the hospital for you know drug use or you think you're overdosing or whatever, you don't get arrested.

0:31:48 - Maya

They're not going to lock you up, which I think is a really powerful thing for you to share on here too, julia. So thanks for sharing that, because I think that is a reason why a lot and I think it's your parents' story is a story that a lot of us may have about our parents. That was something that happened with especially my mother. She's like no, we're not going to focus. My brother struggled with addiction, as most of you guys know, and she was like no, no, we're going to keep him at home, like we'll just keep things away from him. I'm like that's not how it works, mom, like it doesn't work like that. They will go out, they will find ways you can put these restrictions on, they'll get it at work, they'll get, they will figure it out, but they're not going to go to jail.

So I think that's a really big thing for you to share on here is like it like no, like they're looking for people who have committed crimes. They're looking for people that are like giving the drugs out or dealing them. They're not going to be like they want to how. Most of the time I mean, I know there's bad experiences, I'm not, you know, taking that away from people, but most of the time, like if you're bringing your sister, your brother or whomever is struggling with addiction somewhere to get help, like their priority is not be like they'll lock you up first because you had this. Like that's not how it works. So I appreciate you showing that part.

0:33:02 - Julia

Yeah, it is a frustration and a misconception, though, for sure yeah, and I just, you know, I said, you know that's kate's scenario. They provide her with resources right to, like, you know, hopefully stop doing these kinds of things. Um, you know, and it was just, it was just this uh, back and forth, you know, sort of fight argument. I mean, me and my stepdad, just we really um hit a wall like butthead when it comes to sort of a lot of things. But specifically, like this, he has a very um, uh specific view of like 12-step programs and like asking for help and like getting help for, you know, addictions and stuff like that. That's just the way he's always been um. So you know, we've, we've always viewed that completely different. Um, so it's very, you know, rough and tumble argument that night, um, you know, essentially, at one point I told my husband, like let's just throw her up on her. You know, we'll pick her up and we'll just go on over to the hospital because, like this is crazy, like I don't know what we're doing right now, like she's not coherent enough to even tell us what she's taken, wow. So, yeah, I mean, it was, it was a lot, it was a lot.

And you know, I finally, I just, you know, I was like physically blocked at one point by my stepdad and I, I think I just sort of went to this like shut down, like I'm not, I'm not able to sort of like get this through to my parents and like I don't know, at this point, like I'm, I'm like emotionally exhausted and like there's nothing I can do. I don't know, there's nothing I can do, I don't know um, but yeah, short of, you know, throwing my stepdad to the side or punching him out, I don't, I don't see how we would have been able to get her out anyways. So finally I just gave up. You know, and you know he was shouting, screaming like inches from my face. I mean, we were both shot. I mean, I was shouting at him too. I was pissed um. But yeah, the last thing I said to him that night was when she dies, I'm gonna blame you.

And then I went to bed with my husband, um, and then the next morning just, uh, you know, typical fashion, sort of at least with my parents and my family, you know, for brushing under the rug, like details are fuzzy because you know people had been using substance abuse before so it's like oh, you know, oh it's bad, but like you know that just can't ever happen again. You know type of thing like not like, oh, like, let's look into.

0:35:40 - Maya

Like you know ways that you can like stop using drugs or treatment options when you guys were having this conversation with your sister, like, was she articulating to you guys at all what she was using? Or like because was she sober in the next morning? How was that part of the this conversation?

0:35:57 - Julia

yeah, I mean like I think she was just very like remorseful and she she did not recall like any like, and so I actually had recorded her at one point, uh like, just like when she was like nodding off and like you we'd ask her a question, then it would be like, just you know, she would fall, drop off and like not be talking anymore. So I actually taken a video right, because she had a history of being like, oh, wasn't that bad, like that didn't happen. So I was like I just want to kind of have evidence. So like I showed it to her and she was like, oh my god, like I don't remember this, you know, and you know it was.

I think it was really freaky for her, um, and I think she was just also remorseful and she was worried about like getting in trouble and, you know, not being allowed to hang out with certain people. You know, I had like gone through her cell phone too. It's like I had seen that a friend had dropped off whatever it was. I believe it was, maybe I'm not even going to say because I don't even remember but he had dropped off whatever the drug she had been using on, like my stepdad's tire of his car and like I saw this text message exchange very specific.

Yeah, yeah, like you know, oh, re, it's uh, it's on top of you know, the tire and of the car in the driveway and I'm like, you know, like what is this, you know? So it was just sort of there was no real like we want you to, like, you know, go to some meetings or, you know, do this, that the other, I mean, it was just sort of very open-ended. And I think for me it was more open-ended because I didn't live there, you know, and my husband and I we flew home the next day, so like we got home on the second um, so I'm sure you felt so uneasy leaving that situation.

0:37:42 - Maya

I can't imagine like yeah yeah, I went through that with my brother too.

It's very interesting that you filmed her, because I used to film my brother and so did my other sister, when he would be using and he wouldn't remember things and he would get violent and things like that, and it's not really something I've talked about a whole lot. But and then they see it back and it freaks, freaks him out. It really does that. I don't. I don't regret doing that, because I actually use that sidebar. I use that in therapy for myself.

I was like what is this behavior? You know, like, what is going on? Because I needed my therapist to tell me like, yeah, he's using, like you know what I'm saying, like based on my experience, because I, you know, we're so close to the situation that sometimes we're like you know what is this, what is going on? So, yeah, it's interesting that you did the same thing and I'm sure there's a lot of people, a lot of you guys, listening that like, yeah, I've done that too, you know, because we can't, we care, but yeah, you fly back and I'm sure it was just like oh, pit in your stomach, like oh, yeah, yeah, it was just, it was again.

0:38:40 - Julia

It was just like I and I think, because of what happened, right, right, and like Corinda wasn't there, right, corinda lived, she had her own house, like lived with her husband, so she was very much removed right from that sort of experience on New Year's Eve night and like everything I went through and saw and it was just crazy. So, yeah, I mean we went back to Chicago and I think again, oh, what I saw. And I think again, oh, what, what? Um, I saw, and I think my reaction to it all right, um, sort of uh, made the communication, at least with you know, my parents, anything, if anything, was happening with Rihanna, like much, much less, and I think they didn't tell me a lot of things that had like happened up until, you know, she passed away in in May of 2015.

So, yeah, I mean I'm getting into that. I mean, you know, my communication with her was, you know, here and there, oh, like Snapchat, text call, phone call, I found out I was pregnant with our first daughter in March of 2015. You know, so we did that whole little cute surprise, you know announcement thing where we like filmed everybody's reactions on FaceTime and it was funny because Rihanna, she was like oh my gosh, you're pregnant. Like what did she say? She was like, oh man, I'm going to be an aunt, like I better get my SHIT together.

0:40:07 - Maya

And then I was like yeah, and you're like yeah, girl, this is real, Do it yeah.

0:40:13 - Julia

But yeah, so I graduated from my master's program in May, early May. My birthday is May 8th and my graduation, I think, was two days before. So it was this whole plan that, you know, my sisters, my parents, were going to come to my graduation, celebrate my birthday too and just hang out in Chicago.

Yeah, so many exciting things, like you're pregnant, you're graduating, like exciting time for you being able to come, because they had a friend's wife pass away, um, and I was like, of course, like go, they had to travel to be with him. But I was like, yes, go be with him. Like, don't even worry about, you, can live stream my graduation if you want to, it's okay. Um, so, um, corinne and Rihanna, so my two sisters they flew out um, stayed with um, well, actually, no, they stayed in a hotel, but anyways. So they came for like a very like I think it was like kind of a long weekend, so went to my graduation, celebrated my birthday, um, and then they left. That Sunday, um, yeah, flew back to Virginia, um, which I guess that was Mother's Day, because my birthday is always right around Mother's Day. So then, yeah, so then, wednesday, may 13th, that is the day Rihanna passed away.

0:41:27 - Maya

So just to back up for a second. Julia, when you saw her when she came to your graduation and you guys you know they stayed for that short time were you noticing anything then that you had seen, you know months prior when you were there over the holidays? Like was her? Was she? Did she seem like she was using? Did she seem like she was doing better? Like what was your overall kind of? I mean?

I know that was probably a chaotic time. Of course, graduation is always like chaotic and you know it's exciting, like did you notice anything, because you were, so you know, tuned into her, right.

0:41:56 - Julia

Yeah, like you know, and I think, kind of like I don't know right, the year before, like towards the end of it, you know the times, the family gatherings, at least that you know, even though when I was in Chicago, like that we did and everything, um, you know, me and my older sister, you know, sort of had this like I guess I don't know, sort of not really an interrogation, but like I don't know, it seemed like Rihanna was just like sick all of the time, right, and it was always like a nasal thing and it was always just like that's weird. Like the last time I saw you were really sick and like you know, yeah, so we, you know, and I think it like bothered her, but like I think I think she also knew that, like when we were asking her about it, because we were really concerned like you shouldn't be sick this much, you know, like are you going to your doctor? Like what, what's going on? Um, so I mean, if anything, just like that you know, but like that sort of had become just a normal thing, like Rihanna's just kind of got like a chronic, you know, come to find out later. Like you know, she had clearly been storing drugs for a very long time, um, but so yeah and um, I guess one other part that I didn't mention was that, um, at one point in between that time that I was there New Year's Eve and then Rihanna's passing um somewhere in there, rihanna actually moved out of my parents' house and moved in with one of her best friends, rachel, and Rihanna had actually she had, I think she had just moved, because when she was there in Chicago with us that weekend, you know she did bring up a couple of times how concerned she was about Rachel, you know using and didn't really give us a lot of details.

And you know, I guess me with my social work hat I like, is she like, I don't know, like is is Rachel actually using or is she like projecting, like what she's going?

through, yeah um which come to find out they were both using and they were both using, I think, pretty different drugs, if you will um. So you know that sounds super safe, you know, to 23-year-olds living together in an apartment who both independently, you know, who both use, you know, on a semi-regular basis, it appeared or seemed like.

0:44:19 - Maya

So that was very concerning right for me and Craig here and we were like you need to get out of there If this is going on like you need to get out of there.

0:44:28 - Julia

Like you know, are Rachel's parents aware? Like what can we do to help? You know, just like trying to brainstorm because it did not sound good, so, but yeah, so then. So anyway, she was living with her friend, her friend, rachel, I guess, woke up a little bit late and I guess Rihanna didn't have a car right because she totaled her car last year, so she borrowed Rachel's car frequently to drive to work. And I guess Rachel woke up and she was like, oh my gosh, like the time, and she ran into Rihanna's room to like, I guess, wake her up and be like, hey, you're late for work. And so she found Rihanna in her room and she, you know, I can't imagine like that, the one thing I have said to my mom, like you know I hate to say it, but you know I feel like you're, we're all extremely lucky that, like, none of us had to see that, because, yeah, I don't think I'd wish that on anyone and I'm sure Rachel carries that very heavily with her.

0:45:31 - Maya

Yeah, because that's tough. Yeah, yeah, so how did you find out that day you know, we talk about this on the show like every episode who I'm assuming Rachel called you, or was it a family member, or how was that?

0:45:45 - Julia

tell us about that part of the experience the call like, oh my gosh, when I remember like I listened to your first episode and I was like, yeah, the call number one episode because like besides interviews because everybody and I can't tell you how many messages I've gotten for people and they just tell me about their call and I'm like that's I.

0:46:03 - Maya

I hate getting them and I love getting them at the same time, because I love that I opened on such a relatable note for everybody. But it just I hate it because it breaks my heart. So you guys will send me those messages, just disclaimer, but it breaks my heart that so many people connected with it, you know, yeah.

0:46:18 - Julia

What was your yeah, yeah, so it was. So you know, my sisters, I mean, and this is why, like I don't know it, just, it just started to feel like a movie at this point, like a, like a really bad, like movie, really bad, because, you know, my sisters were just been in Chicago, three days before, with me you know, yeah insane.

So like we, actually my entire family, we went, all of us pretty much went a whole day without knowing, um, you know, because rachel, you know, I think once she actually called 9-1-1 and everything, because she woke up late, and when I say late I mean like I don't know, I'm pretty sure it was like 12 or like 1 pm, sure, and rihanna had passed like probably around like four or something like early morning hours, right. So I actually had been at my husband's grandma's funeral that day. We were like dealing with that. His two brothers were in town in Chicago for the funeral, so we had just, you know, been dealing with all that all day. And we had just gotten back to Dan's mom's place and we were just sort of debriefing and like Dan and I were about to leave to go back to like our apartment, um, and Corinda started FaceTiming me and I was like, oh, that's sweet, like because she knew we were at the funeral, like I don't know, maybe she just wants to check in. I mean we say send a lot, whatever.

So I answer it and it's like she's like on the screen and she's just like silent but like visibly distraught and she like she couldn't even uh, like form words, um. And then she handed the phone, like like joke me up. She handed the phone to my brother-in-law and he was like crying and like this man is like stoic. So when I was like he was crying, I was like, oh, like I'm sorry. I was like oh man, like, um, my dad had been having a lot of health problems. So I immediately was like, oh, is it, is it dad? Like is something wrong with?

that associated with that yeah, um, and like I don't know, it was so weird, right, so it's like my cell phone screen. But then, like both of their faces were like on, and then they both just like started shaking their heads. No, and I was like um, and they still weren't talking. So I was like Spit it out, what is going on? Dare I say it? I was like it's Rihanna.

0:48:57 - Maya

Wow.

0:48:57 - Julia

Something happened to Rihanna. Wow, Something happened to Rihanna. And then they were just like both like breaking down, and then I, just like I just knew, when I said it I was like Rihanna's dead, Rihanna died, Rihanna used drugs and she died, yeah.

0:49:16 - Maya

And they just what did? They just nod or said yes, yeah, yeah. I think we were all just like in shock, yeah, um well, like you said, like you've all been together too, like how like crazy?

0:49:32 - Julia

yeah, you know it's yeah out of body still blows my mind like it doesn't make sense, um, but yeah, so, oh, you know, and my parents, they were still in Georgia with my, with their best friend whose wife had just passed away, like they were still there, right. So I mean, the whole thing was, you know, rachel contacted the police. You know, I think the police tried to make contact with my parents but they were not home, so they went to my sister's. So, like, sadly, my sister, you know, ended up taking on this role of, like the informant, right, um, I know what that's like.

Yep, yeah, which I mean to be fair in our family, if it were to be anyone, I mean, it's probably best if it's perinda, but so, yeah, so that perinda found out by the police, you know, I don't know, I think rachel was just too distraught. I mean, I think she immediately went to like her parents, who were still local, and, um, so, yeah, uh, and then, yeah, I, I don't know that it's all such a blur I was also like three months pregnant, of course.

0:50:44 - Maya

What happened? Did you go back home Like what happened next for you, julianne?

0:50:48 - Julia

Yeah, so I don't think I even slept that night, but I got, like I don't know, a 6 or 7 am flight like the very next day, and then I ended up staying there for, I think, like a month. I mean I just graduated, right. And then all of this happened and I was like, well, you know, I'm definitely not starting, I wasn't really planning to start a new job, just with, you know, the baby coming in October anyhow. So I don't know, it's really weird, right, how like timelines and things work like that. Like it's almost like oh, you like set yourself up for like the ability to go home for like a month. You know what I mean. And it's really really, really strange how, when you look back and you're like interesting, because if that were to happen right now, like there's no way I couldn't just like not work for a month you know it is weird when you look back I have similarities and my start totally different, but similar at the same point that I was able to do certain things and it's interesting.

0:51:48 - Maya

So when you went back home, obviously you guys spent time and all of that, you're there for a month, walk us through, kind of what that was like and like did you guys get a coroner's report?

0:52:09 - Julia

Like, how did you, did you find out what she was taking? Like, how did that all transpire, julia, yeah, yeah, um, you know, and like we were just kind of talking about like, how, like looking back, right, um, because I just remember, like the phone call with my sister, and when I finally got off the phone with my sister, um, you know, and the first thing I thought of was like, oh my gosh, that conversation like New Year's Eve, like did I like make this happen? Like I don't know, it was very, um, eerie, super eerie, um, so like, and I don't know, that night, like that's all I could think about, like, and like, oh my gosh, like I said that and then this happened. I can't imagine how my parents are feeling right now, like the guilt just, and like just losing a daughter, like I can't imagine like I'm pregnant with my first right now, like, oh my gosh, gosh, like this is the worst thing that's ever happened.

Um, so, yeah, I mean, I remember calling my mom and again, they were still in Georgia, um, they were making plans at that point, you know, obviously, to come back immediately. Um, and I called my mom once, my husband, I got back to our apartment and, um, I knew, I, I was almost like I didn't want to call because, like I, I don't know like what do I even say this is my sister, but it's her daughter. You know, I think it's that sort of weird thing with grief, not that like siblings are forgotten. I mean, I feel like sometimes we are right in our group.

0:53:38 - Maya

We definitely are, but I think it's a case-by-case situation, right, you know? Because you guys were very tight-knit, so you probably, you know, especially you and your older sister probably felt like you had each other, but we're just forgotten in the scheme of grief, right? So, yeah, you know, we and we do it to ourselves which I think is kind of what you're saying because, right, yeah, we do it because we prioritize our parents and other people, so we are also guilty of it too.

0:54:02 - Julia

No, that's so true, you know it's like okay. Well, you know I've got to like hold myself together because like. I've got to be there for mom like, oh my gosh, it's her daughter, you know, um, but yeah, I have to remind myself like she, she's my sister, you know, and it's okay that I have.

I've got this pain too, you know. Like there's not I remember having so many conversations too with, like my mom about this. Like that it's like you know, it's not like one is hurting more than the other, right, like we have different experiences because she was your daughter, but like she was my sister, and like we can both acknowledge each other's grief and pain. Like it doesn't have to be this like who's more sad or who's more, who's grieving the most. You know, and I feel like at a lot of times it would get sort of to that place and it was just not. I was like no, like this is not how this works.

0:54:52 - Maya

Like that's very unhealthy and it's much healthier to describe it and experience it the way that you described first right, like yes, we're both experiencing this. It's different, um, comparison is, you know, I've had an amazing guest on in the past and she's written a book and she said, you know, comparison is the thief of grief. And I love that and I think it's so true.

0:55:11 - Julia

Yeah, yeah yeah, that whole just like month, I mean it was just you know, I think everybody was just like angry. I mean, you know, parents, they were really wanting to just find somebody to like blame, you know, and at first it was like you know, it was like Rachel, and then it was like you know, what are the police doing about this to find the drug dealer that sold these drugs to her. And you know, I kept in my own you know little way, just like as a daughter, as like a social worker. I was just like you know, we can try to find somebody to blame, all we want.

0:55:47 - Maya

So you're wearing all these hats, naturally right, as a daughter, sister, social worker, and of course that's a normal and I appreciate you bringing that up too, julie, because that's a really normal part too, is where we want to blame other people. You bringing that up too, julia, because that's a really normal part too, is where we want to blame other people and, trust me, there's a lot of situations where, yes, but that's not going to do anything in the moment.

To your point, right, she's gone like that's how you know, and you're being kind of the the one with the level head in this situation, yeah, but you guys are going through all of this, you know, over this month. Like when did you get some answers? That's what we're always looking for, right?

0:56:21 - Julia

yeah, and like the. So we, I remember, you know, shortly after, right, like a detective, came by to my mom's house to talk with us. You know, and I think you know the preliminary talks report, right it, um, I want to say it was like cocaine and fentanyl was like clearly in her system. Wow. So, you know, it was very clear from the get that, like you know, okay, maybe she had been doing cocaine regularly, but like, clearly, this time it was laced with fentanyl, which is ultimately, you know, the cause of her death. Um, you know, and it was, I think my mom just had a lot of questions. You know that he really couldn't answer, you know, and they had her cell phone and the text messages and like, oh, we have a lead with who she might have met up with, you know, but that really didn't go anywhere. It was like a burner phone and it's like, I don't know, I think that's one of those situations like bigger fish to fry. I don't really know.

0:57:25 - Maya

Well, and also to your point that we talked about earlier, this episode it was fentanyl was so new, right, and maybe not necessarily new, but just new to the drug world and to cops and investigators, and like now, it's like we're bringing more awareness to it. I'm glad we're having you and I are having this conversation about it today and it's but it's still kind of unknown, so I'm sure there was a lot of that on on their side too and you sharing the facts and stats earlier. I think this was not.

0:57:54 - Julia

No, we didn't know much about it, we just knew it was a thing like that was kind of yeah, yeah yeah, and one thing too I I know I had mentioned earlier about you know people like being afraid to like go in and you know seek help or what, being afraid right of like repercussions. Yeah, you know, and like I know, since at least since 2015, like many states have, like um, passed laws right where you know if you're even with a person right and whether you're using you're not with a person right, and whether you're using you're not, it doesn't matter. Like if you are using, if you have drugs on you, you can contact 9-1-1. You know, and you're not going to be prosecuted. You know whether you're using or not, um, which I think has also um been a very positive thing for people.

0:58:39 - Maya

I think so too.

0:58:40 - Julia

A lot of people are terrified, you know, yeah, like totally so, and I think a lot of people don't know that still. So I think, like just making sure people understand, like you're not going to get in trouble if you call 911 and save somebody's life.

0:58:54 - Maya

So that was and you know I again I connect with this part of your story because that was something that was just so frustrating. I can't tell you how many times we had cops come to the house and like. I've shared some of that and I think I'll share more of it as I continue on. But you know, in my season one I shared a little bit, but it was such a difficult situation because we had cops come to the house and they wanted to take my brother, like for a 72 hour hold or take him into like they wanted to, and my like for a 72 hour hold or take him into like they wanted to, and my mom would always be like no, no, and he was an adult and so like, well, there wasn't much we could do because she was covering for him and like, but it all, like I have a lot more empathy for her now because I understand, very similar to your parents, that it was coming from a place of fear and they don't understand that it's more progressive now.

Like you're not going to jail. Like they're not looking for like people that are using drugs, they're looking for the people that are distributing it. They're looking for the people that are creating these problems, right. Like if you're using, like you have an illness, like you have an addiction, like this is this needs to be treated more and more. Like how we've gotten a little bit better at mental health, how we're definitely really tuned into helping if our bodies are sick or if we're in an ailment. That way, it's the same thing. Right, it's the same thing, and I think that is refreshing that we're starting to see that change too. But yeah, it's the fear that holds people back.

So I appreciate you talking about that, yeah, yeah. So if you're listening to this or if your sibling is going through this, like that's a great thing to communicate, because I have a lot of people that listen to the show or are on TikTok as you probably seen, julia where they're like I haven't lost my sibling yet, but I feel like I've lost them to addiction. How do I help them? You know, and that's a great opening conversation and coming from a place of empathy and love, where it's like look, you're not going to get in trouble, like let's go talk to someone like you are not. You know, unless they're, you're the ones dealing fentanyl, which is a whole other ballgame, so I'm not the one to help you on that, guys, but this is a conversation that I think is really great and positive and can be some tools in your belt to go have those conversations with your, with your sibling or loved one that's struggling with this.

1:00:58 - Julia

Yeah.

1:01:01 - Maya

Julia with your sibling or loved one that's struggling with this. Yeah, julia, that's a lot, that's a big story and a lot happening in a very short period of time. And also, you know you were at a funeral too. I mean it's very interesting, these incredible siblings that come on the show, because it seems like a lot always happens around the time of loss. It's interesting in life how that is.

But, julia now, now I mean your work, like you worked in social work, like you have. That's what I think is fascinating about your story, too, is like you have experience with this and I really like your messaging around all of this as well. Tell us a little bit about um, kind of tell us about your grief journey now, because you can talk about this so eloquently and well, tell us how you're kind of continuing to advocate for Rihanna. I think you kind of told us a little bit today. And then also kind of close us out and tell us anything maybe that we missed talking about today, or a piece of advice you would give, maybe yourself back in 2014 and 2015,. Right, or something that you could give to siblings that are going through the type of loss that you went through. To close us out today.

1:02:05 - Julia

Yeah, yeah, I mean, I mean well, I mean starting with, like the advice piece. First, I mean right for me, you know, I think, well, one, you know, just move Greg out of the way my stepdad. You know, just move Greg out of the way my stepdad. But number two, you know, I think, just giving yourself as much grace as possible, I mean it's, it's so traumatic. You know, loss is a very hard thing to go through, especially it's such like just sudden, unexpected. You know, and I don't know, especially for me, I know, in my experience, like losing Rihanna, it was um, just not, it was not something in in in my head. You know, like we were supposed to grow up and you know the old ladies together, yeah, like you don't, I think you know. You know, you know and expect right, one day, right, like your grandparents, your parents, they're older than you like, yes, they're going to pass eventually one day down the road um, your sibling, who's like two years younger than you like that's just no.

1:03:20 - Maya

You kind of already have it in your head that you're gonna go first. That's how I was with my, with my brother. I was like yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean let me give or take.

1:03:26 - Julia

When you're older it might happen different, but you don't think that's a whole other right, yeah um, and and it's just, it's, it's uh, it's just a very interesting, uh kind of loss and grief, right, because it's like you know, you continue living your life. You know, like I have two daughters now and they've never met her. I mean, they know about her, they know her picture, they know her name, we talk about her, um, but yeah, it's just all the things in life that you grow up, you do and you're like dang, she not here, you know. So it's just it's hard and then they're just kind of frozen right In time at this like age. But yeah, I mean, I think just being kind to yourself and, you know, talking about it and you know, finding resources like this is always comforting. I mean, I think just being able to connect with other people that have been through um, what you've been through is so important because I remember feeling like just very alone at 25, three months pregnant, lost my little sister, you know, and a month later my dad died too. So, like you know, super traumatic 2015 for me as a 25 year old.

Um, but yeah, I just talk and talk as much as you can, as often as you can, to those that like love you and are okay, listening, right because like it's just, yeah, there's. No, I don't know. I don't feel like there's any like graduation or like you know, step by step, like linear process, right to like getting over grief. It's, it's always there, it changes and it gets different over time, but like it's not, you know it's, it's always going to be there, you know but, and that's okay. Like, like I said, it gets different, but yeah, it's not, it's not going to be this like gut-wrenching, like hysterically sobbing if I talk about it type of thing, like you eventually get and but I still hysterically sob sometimes.

1:05:30 - Maya

Well, I think I love that you said that, because I think it's so scary for people in the beginning, right, because they're like, oh my god, holy crap, I'm gonna feel like this every day of my life. And you don't to your. But like even today on the episode, like you got really emotional when we talked about that specific moment. And that's normal and that's okay, and like thanks for normalizing that stuff in this episode. And I just want to highlight one thing really fast, and then we'll talk about where people can connect with you, where you're comfortable, julia. But I loved that you said about giving yourself grace, because for me, when people started saying that to me in the beginning, like people that really were coming from a genuine place, I love that. You said talk about it with people like that's how you're really going to know who your friends are too, just side bar, like we can adjust this right. Like the people like, don't be afraid. A lot of people always say like, oh, people are so sick of me. Talking about that's not your friend, then that's not your friend. Like this can be a gift for you. You can see who really, really freaking cares about you.

But the giving yourself grace thing I used to be like what does that even mean? Like what are people talking about? So I love that you shared that, because for me, that was an evolution. I had to learn what giving myself grace was. It didn't mean like going and sitting in you know a spa and like putting two covers on my eyes and like taking the day off. No, it meant like you know what, today, the best thing I can do is take a shower and brush my teeth. That's cool. That's cool. That was giving myself grace. I think sometimes we have this like big image of giving ourself great, giving ourself grace, and saying, if I didn't do anything today except brush my teeth or take a shower, or maybe I actually did a load of laundry, win, yeah, that's giving myself grace.

1:07:00 - Julia

So, yeah, I love that, yeah, and I think, I think you know, with what I went through and, like you know, I've I've had people lose, you know, grandparents and stuff like that. Some couple of parents lost maybe yeah, you're in there, whatever um, but you know, I don't know when this happened and just with sort of the bam bam bam with, like you know, my sister, my dad, um, you know it's, I think it's almost sort of like helped a lot of my people, like my friends, and family you know, when they have experienced um a loss.

You know, whatever the loss is, whether it's a parent, grandparents, they're, you know, they'll come to me and be like, oh my gosh, like I'm so sorry, like I had no idea and like isn't it funny how they come back around. And I'm like it's okay, but now, now you know, but also like yeah, weird.

1:07:48 - Maya

Yeah, how'd that happen? Your friends will come to you and they're like I can't believe that. You know, I just lost my parent, I just lost my, and they're like, how did you go through that? And it creates a level of empathy in people and that's they don't understand until they go through it. I don't wish it on anybody, but it's just a different level, so it's interesting you brought that up.

1:08:08 - Julia

Yeah, yeah, a lot of. I've had a lot of friendships in the past few years that I've just really kind of like strengthened, which is like such a sad and strange thing.

1:08:18 - Speaker 3

It is.

1:08:19 - Julia

I've had friends that have lost parents in the past few years and, like those friendships have just like flourished and like just they've become some of the closest people to me you know, because they just, I don't know, they get it and they know that.

They know that I get it. So, like I'm just going to do my Julia thing and show up and you don't have to say anything, you can scream, you can cry, you can do whatever because like I get it. So, um, you're, you're a safe space for them. Yeah, you're a safe and a very cool experience.

1:08:47 - Maya

Yeah so, julia, thank you so much for sharing all of that that's been. It's been amazing hearing your story and I'm so sorry you lost your father as well. That's a lot, you know, a lot of compounding grief happening there for you and so so you really do get it Now.

You're the safe place for your friends for sure to come to. So tell us where we can, where you're comfortable with people connecting with you, if they. Obviously there's going to be a lot of people that connect with your story. So tell us where you're most active on social media and stuff.

1:09:16 - Julia

Yeah, yeah, so on Instagram I am at. It's Julia Phil, so my last name is F, as in Frank ILL, not like Dr Phil. A lot of people make that mistake. And then that's Instagram, and then TikTok, my handle is Julia Phil show notes too, so people can connect with you.

1:09:41 - Maya

Thank you so much for sharing all of that today with us and thank you for sharing your knowledge also. Just, you know, from your perspective as a social worker and your background, I think that's super helpful as well and just kind of the signs that you saw with Rihanna, and thank you for sharing Rihanna with us as well. Yeah, thank you. Thank you so much. Yeah, and thank you guys so much for listening to the surviving siblings podcast.