Caleb Harrison - Losing a Sibling is losing a part of your soul

[00:00:00] Maya: Welcome to the Surviving Siblings Podcast. I'm your host, Maya Ruffler. As a surviving sibling myself, I knew that I wanted to share my story, my brother's story. I lost my brother to a homicide in November, 2016, and after going through this experience, I knew that I wanted to share my story and his story, and it's taken me quite some time to come to the mic to tell it, but I knew it was an important one to tell. So here I am to share his story and mine with you. And it's important that I tell the story of the surviving Sibling, The Forgotten Warner, the story that is not told enough. So thank you for coming with me on this journey, and now it's your turn to share your stories.

[00:01:01] Maya: Today I have a very, very, very special guest with me. You guys actually heard about him on season one. His name is Caleb. Yes, the infamous Caleb from season one is here today with me, Caleb is like the older brother that I've never had. You guys obviously know I have a younger brother and not much older.

[00:01:25] Caleb: Not much older

[00:01:26] Maya: is such a big, Not much older, Yes, not much older , but he is such a big part of the story of Andreas, um, my surviving sibling story and such a big story and part of my life. So I, I have so many things to say, but Caleb, welcome to the Surviving Siblings Podcast.

[00:01:47] Caleb: Well, thanks for having me, Maya. Really excited to be here. I've been following along as you've done this, and to be able to tell my story and talk about Josh and Andreas and how our lives interacted. And we've been family all the way since back in college, so I'm really excited to be here. Really excited to share this with you.

[00:02:04] Maya: Yeah. I'm super excited for you to be here too. And just like I say to everyone that comes on the show and everyone who listens, it's weird to say that, right? That you're excited to be here because this is not an exciting situation to be in. Right. But it's, it's comforting to know that you're not alone. Right. So today we're gonna talk about Josh, the incredible, Josh, your brother. So I'd love for you to kind of just give us a backstory and tell us a little bit more about Josh and who Josh is and what

[00:02:35] Caleb: All right. Well, Josh is my brother. Um, he was my older brother, uh, about two years. And we grew up in a very religious family. So it was Joshua, Caleb, so those of y'all who know your Bible, you know, you could put two and two together and, you know, it really was kind of that kind of relationship. Um, he was very quiet, very laid back. I was always the loud boisterous. When, um, we went through a really emotional time with the church we were at, uh, there was a church split and that just made him draw back even more.

[00:03:06] Caleb: And so we were homeschooled after that. So we were just always together. He really was my best friend without even realizing it, um, until I got older. Um, I could talk to him about anything at, um, there were a lot of, a lot of times where I would vent to him and get frustrated and think that was normal, that that was the normal relationship you had with a brother.

[00:03:26] Caleb: I found out that's not always the case. We had a very, very special close relat. as we got older, he was still the quiet, shy one. He never really said much. Um, I would call and set up his doctor's appointments for him because he hated talking on the phone, um, stuff like that. But when he did find something he was passionate about and start talking, you could not get him to shut up.

[00:03:50] Caleb: I would sit there and it was usually topics way above my head and I would just sit there and act like I was able to catch up with them. But, you know, the brotherly thing. But, um, and like I said, as I grew and I started experiencing things, I left for the Marine Corps. Um, my dad told me when I got back, and I never knew this, that he just kind of got really quiet, really withdrawn, that my parents were so focused on me leaving.

[00:04:15] Caleb: They didn't even realize that he'd lost his best friend. And, um, I got out and, you know, our relationship just grew. And as far as intelligence goes, if I had a quarter of his intellect, , I would consider myself lucky. I mean, he taught himself Latin. Um, as you know, you know, he was called into the ministry.

[00:04:37] Caleb: He was getting ready for seminary. Um, he was just such an incredibly kind, generous person. And me being, How was it you put it infamous . Um, I'm not gonna lie. I would, I would push his buttons from time to time just to get a reaction. And usually he was pretty laid up back about it. But if, again, like with his topics of interest, if I, if I pushed him too far, he still knew how to put me in my place.

[00:05:04] Caleb: Um, we just had this amazing brother relationship that I, they say you never know what you miss until it's gone. And that's, that's really true. You never know that you have such a short, limited time. Sometimes people in our situation, people who have lost somebody, you think you have your whole life ahead of you.

[00:05:24] Caleb: You think you have years and years of memories to make. and you don't realize that when you wake up one day, literally in the blink of an eye, all that's changed. And the only memories you have are the ones you add up until that point. And, um, you know, it's kind of, kind of a kick to the gut when you realize there will be no new memories, at least physically.

[00:05:47] Caleb: Um, you have to keep reliving the, the old ones and you hope they're good. You hope they're good memories. But honestly, you'll live every memory. The good, the bad, you don't care. You hold on to everything you have of that person and you live every second day by day. And you know, we ever get tired of it.

[00:06:07] Caleb: You know, you always are there to relive those moments with those memories. Cause that's all we have.

[00:06:14] Maya: Yeah, I agree. And I was lucky enough to know Josh, just like you were lucky enough to know Andrea. So it's an interesting dynamic that we are able to. Talk about this and I, yeah, and I definitely, um, I wanna talk more about Josh and I wanna say this just a little bit.

[00:06:36] Maya: So I was again, lucky enough to meet Josh. And Josh was, and is super, super smart, just like you said, but Caleb's super smart to you guys. So he's selling himself a little bit short. But him, Josh and I connected over cuz I am an English major and we connected over his poetry. And the poetry that you have from him and that he wrote in his lifetime is incredible.

[00:07:02] Maya: I mean, that really showed for me, that was how him and I connected. But I just, in the short time that I knew him, it was such a beautiful thing.

[00:07:11] Caleb: Oh, it, unfortunately, we don't have enough. Like I said, he was very quiet and very reserved. Um, there were a few that he felt comfortable enough with putting on Facebook and when we found those, you know, cuz again, he was very. You know, a conservative person kept everything kind of inward, but when we found those, it would absolutely give you chills. The way he used words, the way he was able to create analogies. Um, he actually went to Bruton Parker College and got his English degree. Um, he was teaching at a little private school, Pinewood and, um, his students, that there were some growing pains when he first got there, but by that second year, um, they had really, really accepted him.

[00:07:51] Caleb: And they, to this day, as a matter of fact, um, my last physical episodes I was having in my last ambulance ride, one of the ambulance drivers was a student of his all of these years. And he recognized, he recognized my name and he's like, Were your, was your brother Joshua? I said he was. And he said, I had Mr. Harrison for that one year, and he still has left an impact on every single person there. Now this kids graduated high school, graduated college, you know, early twenties, and he recognized my name from my brother and I was laying in the back of the, And he, we had a conversation about him. He said, I'll never forget, you know, the way he talked, the way he was able to make it relate, um, he said he left such an impact, them teachers who have been there for years.

[00:08:40] Caleb: And that was really, really amazing to hear all these years down the road. I mean, as you know, for us, we keep the memories alive, but to hear somebody else come up to you and say, Hey, I remember your brother. Um, as you know, as time goes on, anybody who's been in this situation, it's almost like we start feeling guilty for talking about 'em, for missing them so much. Um, I've caught myself on special events, maybe not posting on Facebook. You know how people are tired of hearing about this. They don't want to, Not that it was ever said directly, but you almost feel a guilt about constantly talking about your brother. I, you know, people don't wanna hear it, you know, they're tired of hearing it, and I don't understand why we do that to ourselves.

[00:09:26] Caleb: But the people I have talked to have been in this situation, have expressed the same thing. Say, Man, why you, why you living in the past, you know? Well, the, the past was my brother and it's been, I mean, it's been challenging for me to get past that. You know, I'm very careful and very still. Well, have I mentioned 'em before to this group of people?

[00:09:43] Caleb: You know, have I brought this up? You know, I don't, I don't wanna talk too much about, and I really think that's doing us and them a disservice. That's why we have in need podcasts like yours. It's okay to talk about this. It doesn't matter if I'm 80 and still talking about my brother . That's okay. That's okay.

[00:10:05] Maya: We hope you're enjoying this incredible episode of the Surviving Siblings Podcast. I'm your host, Maya Roffler. We'll be back in just a minute. After hearing from our incredible sponsor. Are you feeling lost in your grief journey? Perhaps even stuck as a surviving sibling. I too have felt lost, stuck, confused, angry, Well fill in the blank. I felt so many emotions along my grief journey. I'm sure you know exactly what I'm talking about too. Along the way, I found that what I needed was answers to all of my unanswered questions. Validation. Permission to feel everything that I was feeling at different times, and ultimately I needed guidance. That's why I created the Grief Guide for Surviving Siblings. This is a 23 page guide that guides you, the surviving sibling along your grief journey, written and created by a surviving sibling for surviving siblings. Click the link in the show notes to get your copy or visit the surviving siblings.com where you can also find more show information, merchandise for surviving siblings like you, and more resources and support.

[00:11:33] Maya: I agree. Yeah, no, completely. I, you know, we've had a guest on this season and it's. Many, many years since she's lost her sister, and I think it's just proof and really powerful that they're with you for life. It's called a grief journey for a reason because they're with you for life. Because our siblings are, you know, Josh, I mean, how you just started explaining and talking about your relationship.

[00:11:57] Maya: I mean, he's your. Best friend. He's, he was with you through all these experiences. He's your older brother. Like nothing can take that away from you. E even his death, like nothing. And just so you guys know, for reference of this story, Caleb was deeply and is deeply impacted by Covid 19. And, um, and this in, in 2022.

[00:12:19] Maya: This year and has been in, in and out of the hospital and thank God is still with us today. Because I don't know what I would've done with myself if that had not been the case.

[00:12:27] Caleb: I almost gotta say Josh. Josh Andre is shortly .

[00:12:30] Maya: Yes. Yeah. And that's, that is, that is true. I was a wreck. You guys, I was a total wreck. Um, but I wanna talk about, I, I love like how crazy is that, that this kid was like, I know Josh. I didn't even know that. So I love that. I'm finding this out. This is why we do these episodes.

[00:12:46] Caleb: I kind held on to that. I I knew you love that. We've been, we've been discussing being on the show. Yeah. I got sick and that was how I was like, man, this is gonna, I was catching up on the podcast, uh, as much as the morphine would let me , but, um, as like, you know, this, this is such a great, a great moment. I'm, I'm gonna hold onto this one cuz we knew we were gonna get here. So

[00:13:08] Maya: I love that. And I love that you said that because there were times when I was just the worry war Maya that I am. So I'm glad that we are here and that you're doing. But I want you to kind of go back with all of us and share with all these incredible surviving siblings and supporters that listen to this show about that time in 2009.

[00:13:29] Maya: I'll never forget it as your best friend, your sister, your supporter, but it's different for you as a surviving sibling. I was not one at the time, I was your supporter as some of the people listening. So take us back to 2009 and what happened to Josh. You've already mentioned he was a teacher, but what, how did he pass and, and tell us that.

[00:13:49] Caleb: All right. So a little bit of background. Uh, like I said earlier, you know, you always think you have. Forever. So I had left for the Marine Corps at 18. Um, my parents signed when I was 17, so I left at an early age. Um, I was caught, Sleepwalk didn't work out. I was discharged and I came back home and my brother was there for me.

[00:14:09] Caleb: You know, this was, um, very early on in my discharge. And then I was like, you know, I, I can't stick around. Um, there were some family issues and him being the older one, the protector, even though I big bad Marine, but he was still that emotional support, that emotional protector. And, um, he's like, You know what, I've got it here.

[00:14:27] Caleb: Go off and, and do your thing. Go, you know, go to school, you know, I'm where I need to be. And he really encouraged me to go to Valdosta. So I left home again, went to Valdosta and he would come visit and we would hang out. I never thought I would be in this situation. I found myself, he started teaching school and then one morning I knew he had been sick.

[00:14:47] Caleb: Um, and so this was early September and I had actually talked to him. He wasn't feeling well. And the next day I called and mom said he was too, too weak to talk. Um, at the, at that time, he was living with my parents. My mom was chronically sick. My dad had to work, so Josh was there taking care of her while teaching and doing everything that else was involved.

[00:15:07] Caleb: And so, and my youthfulness and, you know, 26 year olds don't die. Um, I said, Okay, well I'll call him tomorrow. I called back the next day and I was told he had been taken to the hospital. Um, he had had severe pneumonia and the previous evening he had gone to the doctor. He didn't have insurance at the time.

[00:15:25] Caleb: It was a private. And I mean, they did what they could in the situation, but he was encouraged to go home if he had any more issues to follow up with his primary care doctor that morning. Well, that, that morning the alarm was going off and, uh, mom said she went in there. She finally went to wake him up and he was already turning blue.

[00:15:41] Caleb: He was already suffering from lots of loss of oxygen and air. So they got him in an ambulance and they rushed him to Savannah. Savannah was full. They sent him to make when he got there. And um, what had happened was he had actually contacted swine flu, um, H one N one, complicated by, and the pneumonia was setting in, and that was, I'll never forget the x-ray they showed us when he walked in, his, his lungs were just completely whited over classy.

[00:16:08] Caleb: There was no act actually. Extra room in his chest. The pneumonia had taken over again. 26 year olds don't go out like that. I expected him to make a full recovery. Um, that night. Once he was settled in the hospital, I was able to talk to him very, very briefly. I did not know it would be the last time I would talk to him.

[00:16:26] Caleb: I told him to get better, that he needed to come see me again about daa. That actually the three of us needed to go to another pool night out at CJ's . He loved that. And, um, he said he would, he would, and he loved me. And he talked to me later again, I'm thinking, Okay, you know, it's a hiccup. No big deal. 26.

[00:16:43] Caleb: He was very healthy, worked out, ate healthy. Uh, the next day my dad called and I could tell, and the sound of his voice. He was a very, very concerned, very worried. He said that they were actually going to have to put him into a medically induced coma, uh, to help him breathe. His lungs were completely shutting down.

[00:17:00] Caleb: And the problem with this was the longer the machine breathed for him, the more difficult it would be for him to come out of it. So it, it was the best option they had at the. My parents agreed to do what they could. They medically induced him into a coma, and for 15 days they, they watched my dad stayed at that hospital.

[00:17:19] Caleb: I was still in class. I'm still, you know, I'm still in denial. I, It's not gonna happen. It's not gonna happen. You know, it's been two days, four days, 10 days. He's holding on, he's gonna do better. And then to, as it got closer to that 15 day mark, the stats started dropping even more and more. And the doctors came in, they said, We're not saying that this is it, but it's just not looking good.

[00:17:40] Caleb: Start preparing yourself. Well, for me, preparing myself was going to the liquor store, buying three bottles of top shelf tequila and planning on not remembering any of this. If, if this was the final result, the end result. Two days after I did that, we got the phone call gathered, the family even. , you're still in denial.

[00:17:58] Caleb: Like, Okay, we'll get there and he'll be fine. You, you don't ex don't want to accept the fact that this is it. You can't accept the fact that, that he's not gonna wake up and look at you. You start to realize he's been your everything for so long and you didn't even realize it. And we got there and I, y'all came down, you, Miranda and Nick, y'all came down with me a support.

[00:18:17] Caleb: I showed up. We were at the hospital with my parents and his numbers went up and down. But then that night, around 2:00 AM um, they came in, they called a code blue. And we, at that point, we knew what that was and we knew it was Josh. And um, they came in and they did everything they could. But they let us back to a point.

[00:18:37] Caleb: They did let us in the room. They were working on him, but we were there outside the door and we, we heard the doctor say that, That's it, call it. And um, they pronounced the time of death. And with that last. , that was the last time that I would see my brother on this side of attorney. And, um, you just, you go in shock when that happens.

[00:18:56] Caleb: Your, your brain is saying, there's no possible way. This did not just happen, but at the same time, you know, it did, you know, your life just changed forever. And you know, we had those 15 days to prepare. A lot of people don't get your situation. Other situations, you don't get that time. You have to process it all in the blink of an eye.

[00:19:15] Caleb: I mean, I know I say when I got the phone call about Andreas, it was literally just, and you had to process all that. I had, I had the blessing of 15 days and that was a blessing.

[00:19:25] Maya: That's still very fast though. It's, it's all perspective, right? It's all perspective, which we've heard about on, on this season, and we'll continue to hear about in, in seasons that to come.

[00:19:34] Maya: But it's, you say 15 days was a blessing. You know, for me, I feel lucky that I got to, you know, I, I changed my perception and, and all of this, right? That I even got to see my brother's body, you know, I try to look at it differently now, but I, but that's for me to say, that's not for other people to say, which we'll dive into that when you, you know, finish your, finish, finish the actual story of it.

[00:19:57] Maya: But, you know, it's, it's something I, I did wanna point out as you were saying that though, It's perspective, right? Because people listening to this are gonna be like, Wow, these two really have, maybe have it together. But no, that, that takes time. Cuz we sure as hell didn't feel like that in the moment of, you know, having, you know, me having less than three days and I never, you know, even really saw him alive.

[00:20:16] Maya: I saw him dying as he came in. You, you know, had a couple words and that was it. And then it was a 15 day extended period, which yeah, I remember coming there with, ironically enough my brother and, and, and Nicky and uh, Miranda afterwards, you know, when he, when Josh had passed. But you know, I came to the hospital before, but yeah, it was, um, yeah, it's great that you had 15 days, but that was such a sudden situation that happened.

[00:20:42] Maya: So what was that like for you emotionally after that? I mean, you're in this, in this, I mean, it's a shock. That's a shock. You didn't, you thought he could make it out and, and we did too. I will never. It was wild, Caleb, because me being your supporter, and that's what I want, uh, want everyone to know here that are listeners.

[00:21:01] Maya: This is not just for people who are surviving siblings, these are for supporters too, because we need more supporters. And as your supporter, it was eerie because you told all of us, you were like, It's gonna be fine. It's gonna be fine. We had been there for like two days or something and you were like, Go home guys, Go home, go home.

[00:21:19] Maya: And he, I got home at like midnight, I think he password around two or three and there's something in the morning. And I was, and, and I was only two hours away at that time. And I took something to sleep like you normally do when you're going through these traumatic things. You know, I don't, And survival Society something.

[00:21:35] Maya: Yeah. And I wake up to all these, you know, calls and I, I felt so guilty and you know, but I, you know, realize now from the passing of time, there's nothing I could have done. Right. This is your story. This isn't my story, but an interesting thing to look back on through time. But, you guys. So you're there. What, what was next for you after realizing this is, I mean, here you are as a family.

[00:22:03] Caleb: You know that, that's a very, very interesting question because your body does go into survival mode. Um, it blocks out certain events certain times. I mean, there's so many patches in everything that was going on. Um, you remember the people we talked, going back to supporters.

[00:22:21] Caleb: You remember the people who were there. You, Andreas, you know, Nicki Miranda. Even though we, you know, the other two, we haven't stayed as in close contact as I did with y'all. They were there. The girl, I remember, the girl I was dating at the time, she, she was not to that level is, it's how you support and everybody needs support differently, and she wasn't even able to be there the way that you and Andreas were.

[00:22:46] Caleb: After it all happens, it's your body's in shock. Your mind's in shock. You, you don't. You don't think it happened. You think you're dreaming. So the way I dealt with it, I remember the, I do remember the drive home staring out the window. I was, I followed dad the entire way home. We live two hours from Macon, this small town vi, y'all may know the onions, right?

[00:23:08] Caleb: This is after we got the news and we sat there and , I will never forget, my dad looked up at the doctor and said, Now what? I mean, if that had been his life for 15 days, that'd been our journey. I mean, he slept on the floor. Like, Okay, well now what? And they, they processed, they said, You know, we're gonna process the body.

[00:23:26] Caleb: We're gonna, you know, and at that point it was Josh's soul was not there. Um, which we'll get to that, you know, at the, at the funeral, his who he was, was no longer in that room. But I remember, I do remember the drive home vividly, just staring out the window and you're exhausted, you're. , you're trying to relive the moments you're playing.

[00:23:47] Caleb: The what if game. What if we had done this? What if we had this doctor? There were two people that came in with the exact same thing my brother did while we were there, and they caught it in time and they walked out. Well, why did they walk out and Josh didn't? Um, you just, you torment yourself. You know, you start thinking, you know, the times you push buttons just for fun, you know, you start thinking about, well, what is, what's he going through?

[00:24:10] Caleb: What's his soul experiencing? I mean, what's he seeing right now? Does he even know what just happened? You know, his consciousness and you're just sitting there. And I remember on the way home, you're not, I wasn't able to cry at that point. I wasn't able to shed tears. I was in survival mode. I picked up the phone.

[00:24:27] Caleb: I called my dad. He was in the car ahead of me, and I said, I, I wanna talk at his funeral. He's like, Caleb, this just happened. You know, Are you sure? I said, I, I know I wanna stand up and talk. I know I knew right away on the ride home that I wanted to talk and say something for my. So he said, Okay. Um, we got home and my way to deal with it was for three days to sleep as much as I can and thinking every time I woke up, it'd be different because you think you, you think it's a nightmare.

[00:24:57] Caleb: So you think, Well, if I can just wake up enough Yep. Then it'll, it won't be the same. It'll be a different outcome. Say you just sleep and you stare and you, you answer the messages as best you can. All the well wishers, you know, people stop by. Um, I think it was a good solid three and a half to four days when I was alone by myself in my room.

[00:25:23] Caleb: Well, Josh's room, when I was at home, I was staying with my parents. At the time, it was his room. I was staying there and I started looking around the walls. I saw a puzzle that he did that his very first puzzle, he completed by himself. His favorite books, his grade books, he still had sitting out beside the bed where he was grad papers.

[00:25:41] Caleb: And when I was alone and by myself is when the emotion actually rolled in and it all hit at one time and I just, I lost it. I dropped on my knees right there, and I don't even know how long I laid there, just sobbing. And, um, my parents came to the door, they said, they checked on me. I don't remember all the details, but they just kind of let me deal with it.

[00:26:03] Caleb: But it's such a traumatic event that it, it, it took that long. And to be in his room, his surroundings, to process what had truly happened, knowing that he wouldn't ever step foot back in that room, at least not this physical body. And seeing how he, I mean, none of this was prepared or planned. I mean, like I said, his grade books were sitting out, you know, life was going on, as usual as it should have until that one moment when he was put in the hospital, when he got sick.

[00:26:36] Caleb: and there, there was, there's no way to truly cope with those thoughts and emotions until you, you're alone by yourself. You know? Cause again, you, you put on a brave face for the people coming by. I remember at the funeral, of course, I, you know, I got choked up and teared up. I, I couldn't tell you hardly other than this.

[00:26:54] Caleb: Again, the special supporters, you, Andreas, you know, your family that was there, that had been there the entire time. I couldn't even tell you really who was there when I looked out from the podium. It was just a group of people. Now, they were all people. I knew people, I'd grown up with people who loved and supported Josh, but I couldn't focus on who they were.

[00:27:17] Caleb: I was doing everything I could to hold it together. My body, my brain was, was doing things that I wasn't even aware of . So I could just function. But then when all that's over with, Your body can only do that for so long. Your brain can only protect you for so long. It eventually says, Okay, it's, it's time to deal with it.

[00:27:38] Caleb: And I told you I'd gone to the liquor store and, um, being outta the Marine Corps, I probably drank more than I should have when I was in college, more than I'd like to admit. But I walked back into that dorm room, um, after the funeral, after I'd been home for a few days, and, um, I was in my final year of college.

[00:27:54] Caleb: And of course I get it, but the professor's like, Oh, if you're not here, you can't get the grade. So I had no choice but to go back. It was literally my key ca uh, capstone class. I walked back into that dorm room and just nothing was the same. And I saw those bottles sitting there. I was like, You know what, Josh wouldn't want that for me.

[00:28:14] Caleb: He wouldn't want this. He would be so disappointed and so upset. And I poured every single one of those bottles down the drain without even touching 'em. Um, that was my first step, I think, in trying to make sense of it and realize he's gone. So what am I gonna do now? Right. And I still, to this day, I still look up to him.

[00:28:37] Caleb: I still make decisions based on would he approve, you know, what, what would he think about this? And we didn't always see eye to eye and he wasn't always right, but he at least had his own opinion and he would give it to me. And it was at least well thought out, respectful. And it was for my best interest.

[00:28:57] Caleb: Now, again, I may or may not have taken the advice, but it was there and realizing that I was on my own.

[00:29:04] Maya: I'm sorry, I have to laugh a little bit of this part because I, I know the relationship, so I have to laugh a little bit because it's, it, the, the dynamic between the two of you is really. It's really beautiful. And you're right, you don't always appreciate it until it's gone and no, you didn't, you didn't always take his advice. But, you know, college May was glad about that cause we partied a lot. But anyway, I had to make your laugh in the middle of that . Anyway, I, I don't, I don't know if I ever knew about the, um, the, the, the bottle part of that and pouring it down over, I, you probably shared it with me, but I think the, the strength behind that story, it means a whole lot more hearing and again, now where we are right. In our grief journeys. So, yeah.

[00:29:51] Caleb: Actually my, uh, roommate, Woody, you remember Woody? He came in, he's like, What are you doing? Why you that's top shelf? I said, You know, I, I explained like I just, I don't need this right now. You know, if I have a reason to drink, I don't need to drink. And that was really a turning point, I would say in maturity.

[00:30:05] Caleb: Yeah. The way, the way I would deal with it, it would be very easy to spiral outta control in a situation like that. And he's like, Well man, get, give it to me. I'll drink it. And I was like, That's not the point. I need to do this for me, for Josh. Right. You know, and I mean, like I said, you know, we, we've talked, we, we've set up countless hours at night talking about Josh, Andreas, but like I said, your body just, it, it can only retain so much, you know, And that's what I love about this podcast and hearing the stories from these people.

[00:30:34] Caleb: like you said, certain things mean more in this setting. When you focus on, and what may have been said is a casual conversation previously suddenly takes on such a different dynamic, so much more meaning, and you're like, Wow, that was, that was a real turning point. I may not have realized it back then. Nobody may have. But sitting here with you talking about this, that was really my first challenge of growth. How are you gonna handle this? This has happened. It was acceptance, you know, this has happened. You have your life ahead of you. How are you gonna deal with it? Is it going to destroy you or are you gonna become out stronger and better for it?

[00:31:14] Caleb: And not that thing. I'm sure anybody has experienced that. I mean, you know, losing Andreas the way you did, you know, does it drag you down too? Does it take you with it? Um, does one death claim two lives? And, um, a lot of times for the survivor, the surviving sibling, that that can be the story. because again, we don't know who to talk to.

[00:31:34] Caleb: We don't know, we don't know how to deal with, this isn't the normal order of things. You know, we grow old, we have kids, we die. We expect to see the incoming . You know? Um, so when it doesn't work out that way, it really challenges those of us who are, who are still here, Okay, this is what you're facing, how are you gonna deal with it?

[00:31:56] Caleb: And, um, I mean, like I said, you, you found a release and you know, you're doing this, of course, many other things. This is just a small thing that's been done, but we've talked in detail little things and every day, you know, let, let's push the bottle away this time. Let's pour the tequila out this time. You know, let's make a decision that's gonna be better for us, that they would be proud of.

[00:32:19] Caleb: And that really is the start of the Acceptance Pro process. And I think the, the growing, the maturity of dealing with that kind of loss,

[00:32:31] Maya: I think you said a whole lot here. So I want to, I wanna talk about a couple of these things. You've mentioned a couple different terms that I think are really huge just in grief in general, but also in the surviving sibling process because you've talked about being in shock and kind of denial and then also having some acceptance.

[00:32:50] Maya: And so this is something I've talked about in season one and then also throughout season two. And it's the fact that, you know, these, you know, some people say it's five stages of brief. Some people say it's seven, I believe in all seven, but you're talking about something very key here. It's not linear.

[00:33:08] Maya: You're gonna experience all of these, these factors and these feelings, these stages, whatever people wanna call it. It's not a linear thing. And I, I see a lot of, um, surviving siblings, like in support groups or when I've, you know, talked to them when they're not. At the quote unquote phase that they want to be at.

[00:33:28] Maya: And they're frustrated If I felt that way, and it sounds like you shared the same sentiment, if I forced myself to be like, Okay, I wanna be, I should be, that's a dangerous word. I should be at depression now, or I should be at, you know, um, bartering now. Right? Or I should, Or bargaining. Bargaining or whatever it is.

[00:33:49] Maya: Yeah. Bargaining, uh, you know, and you set these expectations for yourself. Like it's really important to know, just hearing your story, Caleb, that like you went through almost the entire set of five or seven, whatever you believe in, um, right away. So you were accepting it, you weren't accepting it, you were bargaining, you were like, If I did this, what if That's the what if phase?

[00:34:11] Maya: So that's a huge thing to unpack, I think, right here in your story, because we need to understand that yes, there's something too. That there's a reason, you know, we've had doctors and psychologists talk about this, but it's not a race. It's called a journey for a reason. And you're still on it. And I'm still on it.

[00:34:34] Caleb: Absolutely. And you make an amazing point, and at least in my experience, which I'm sure I'm not the only one, even though it's, we feel so alone until we come across something like this, but sometimes in the journey, you may take four steps back. Um, I've noticed at one point, you know, one year his birthday rolls around, I'll be doing great, you know, a special event, something that we shared some days I'll go through my cigar cabin that we shared cigars.

[00:35:01] Caleb: He love cigars, and I can't even take a cigar out because I'm so grief stricken. So it, it's not a, it's not linear, it's not a timeframe. And you may take five steps forward and then take two back and, and that's okay. You know, just because you hit step five doesn't mean you can't go back to step one. And I'm telling you, even with the timeframe it's been of him being gone 2009, I'm still forward back, forward back.

[00:35:30] Caleb: I mean, I'm, I'm still, you know, doing the two step , you know, I mean, I love that. I mean, and I have no rhythm. I can't dance. But, but I mean, it's, it is, it's not, and, and I think that's why we put so much, you know, stress and condemnation on ourselves for, well, I shouldn't be talking about it. This, this far, you know, it's been 2009, we're in 20, you know, 20, 22.

[00:35:53] Caleb: You know, let it go, let it go. But that's the thing, you know, we don't, Why do we have to let it go? Why do we have to do that? Why do we have to push ourselves and condemn ourselves for talking about somebody that we love that meant so much to us? And I've been trying to figure out where this come from. I mean, nobody's ever said, Oh, quit talking about it.

[00:36:13] Caleb: It's all internal. Every bit of it is, I feel the pressure, you know, nobody wants to hear it after, you know, Um, I'm not sure if my dad's wife, Angie, she lost her son, um, in a tragic boat accident. Mm-hmm. . And we were having this conversation the other day and it was his birthday. And she's like, Yeah, I didn't even post anything on Facebook cuz nobody wanted, you know, nobody, nobody.

[00:36:34] Caleb: It's been too far out, you know, nobody wants to hear that. Nobody wants to read. And when we gotta start talking about this, the same thing. Well, why do you feel that way? Like, what is in society that makes us feel that we have to get over this. Mm-hmm. , we don't . Mm-hmm. . It's okay. It's okay for me to wake up tomorrow and fall, fall on my knees crying because I missed my brother.

[00:36:56] Caleb: He was part of my life. Why do I have to get over losing part of my soul? And you know, in this journey you realize, you know what's become the social norm, what we've put on ourselves, what others have put on us, whether consciously or subconsciously. . We're not bound to that. It's gonna be different for every person.

[00:37:17] Caleb: Some people, they may be okay for the majority of the rest of their life. Others may, you know, have go back to step one four or five times a year. They may never get all the way through the steps , you know, I mean, it could be Yeah. 80, 90 years old and they're still working through the process. Yeah. To say one's right and one's wrong is to use your words very dangerous territory.

[00:37:41] Caleb: Yeah. When we start saying, Well, you know, well, okay, I handled Josh's death this way, so this is how you should handle Andreas's death. And um, I saw it caused a lot of, I saw that way of thinking, caused a lot of issues with my parents' marriage when, when Josh passed away, um, you know, won grief this way, but that wasn't good enough for the other one.

[00:38:00] Caleb: You know, my mom wanted us to grieve this way. She was very emotional. She wanted us to go release balloons and, you know, don't get me wrong, we. Memorialized Josh in our own way and we kept him alive in our own way. But you can't tell me how I should honor my brother's death. If you wanna honor it that way, that's fine, but you can't really put those expectations on me.

[00:38:24] Caleb: And that goes back to those, the supporters, you know, are they pushing you to hurry up and get through the timeframe or are they saying like you and Andreas did in my situation? You know, it's okay. Take your time. You know, sometimes the wrong kind of support can be the worst thing in a situation like this.

[00:38:42] Maya: Oh, I just got chills. But , I feel by this, Cause I wanna talk about this too, cuz I think, again, you, you've unpacked a lot of really important things. So yes, I agree. And this is why we say here on the Surviving Siblings podcast that, so to back up and then we're, we're gonna go into your parents cuz this is huge.

[00:39:00] Maya: This is a big, a big thing. Uh, but what you said is, who's to say that I'm supposed to move on? Get over it. Like, these are all really toxic things and this is why your, you know, your father's wife, uh, goes through this. This is why we feel these things. And it's, you know, I don't feel this way anymore, but I went through this and I'm sure you feel this way sometimes too.

[00:39:22] Maya: Posting about Josh, because we're talking about this, we feel like, Ooh, maybe someone doesn't wanna hear this anymore. It's been X amount of years because there's this expectation that we should get over it or we should move on. Guess what guys? Like, I'm gonna say it again. I say it on a lot of episodes.

[00:39:38] Maya: You don't get over it. You can move forward. There's no moving on. There's no, there's a difference. And there's been a couple of incredible guests so far that have talked about this and we're talking about it again, because there is a consistency between. All of us as surviving siblings who have come to a certain point of acceptance.

[00:39:59] Maya: And the reason we're at quote unquote acceptance is because we embrace all of these emotions and all of these parts of our grief journey, and we understand that in order to move forward, this is a part of who we are and this is a part of our life. And this person, whether it's a brother, sister, or multiple siblings, which those of you who hear those stories, I just, I don't even know God loved them.

[00:40:23] Maya: Right. , I don't even know. I mean, those are, Oh my gosh, please don't put me through this again. God, please. But, um, I mean, my heart goes out to them, but I, you know, I think it's really important to understand that moving forward is, is the goal. Like that's the goal I think, for everything in life because everything you go through is something that's gonna come with the territory in life.

[00:40:47] Maya: And so I think you really. Said that and really touched on that in, in your way, and I really loved that. And then I love how you're going into the different ways of grieving. So anyway, I wanna go back into your, what you were saying about your parents, because I think that's really important to talk about what it means to grieve differently, but also to respect that.

[00:41:08] Maya: Because I think that I, I went through a similar type of situation where I was angry at some of my family for maybe not grieving the same way as myself. And I had to kind of grow with that and learn that they weren't understanding this concept of moving forward versus moving on. And I had to listen to, You have to move on, my have to let go.

[00:41:36] Maya: And that was very toxic for me. But now I'm in a place where I, six years later, am able to. Say that's their journey. This is my journey and I'm okay with that. So I so connect with what you went through now with your mom and your dad and, but I can also understand why this was difficult because each one of them had a different style.

[00:42:06] Maya: And I understand your mom because I think my mom and her mom are you, your mom are a lot alike. It's like, let's, let's check all the boxes, let's do all the things so that we don't have to really feel anything, you know? And I mean, you know, I love your mom and may, may she rest in peace as she has passed now as well.

[00:42:32] Maya: But you know, I think that was kind of her. Mode of dealing with it. And I, I kind of think that was my mother's as well, which this is kind of the first time I'm opening up about this, so I'm being very vulnerable on this episode too. But I think that was her way and I've become more accepting this year of that.

[00:42:51] Maya: That's been a thing for me and understanding that. And so, but I, I wanna, I, I just wanted to recap that and then go back to you on this, because that was a huge thing for your parents, though it can be an issue. So talk us, talk us through that. So your mom kind of wanted to do all the things. She wanted to put everything out there.

[00:43:10] Caleb: There was, there was a guy at a time who was traveling around and if. Paid a very small amount of money. He would put your siblings, your sons, whoever it was that passed on his van. He had like this huge big moving type van and he would plaster the picture on there and drive around with it. She wanted to do stuff like that.

[00:43:29] Caleb: She wanted to, you know, commemorate, set up basically a shrine of his stuff. I mean, she basically, she wanted to keep busy so she wouldn't have to think about it. And um, you know, she would get upsets. She would, Y'all just want, y'all just want to forget about 'em. Y'all just wanna move on, you know, like you said, not, not move forward.

[00:43:48] Caleb: Y'all want to just be done with it, you know, put 'em in the ground and be done with it. And you've touched on a very good point. You were able to accept the way she grieves, but has she accepted the way you grieve? Right, because my mom never really accepted the way that I chose to grieve and to commemorate my brother.

[00:44:07] Caleb: We were able to move past that and reestablish our relationship before a very, very long time. That caused a lot of issues because I was very accepting. I told her, I said, Mom, you do what you need to do. He was your son as a brother. I can't tell you what you're going through as a, you know, as a mother. I said, It's a different dynamic.

[00:44:27] Caleb: I lost a brother. You lost a son. I can't tell you what you're feeling, how to fill it or how to act on it, but at the same time, you can't do that to me either. And she was very stubborn, as you know, and she felt that because we weren't grieving her way, that we weren't grieving at all. And unfortunately I ran across some, some people who supporters air quotes that, that kind of thought the same way.

[00:44:58] Caleb: And again, there the, there is potential for a lot of toxic in a situation like this because it's so raw and people think they're trying to help, but in reality they're causing way more damage to the situation. and we had some people get, you know, jumping in with my mom. Yeah, they're wrong. They should be doing this, they should be doing this.

[00:45:18] Caleb: But see, we never told her not to grieve her way. We just said, Don't get mad at us if we choose to commemorate. Cuz there is no right or wrong way to grieve somebody.

[00:45:29] Maya: Boom. Mic drop, Mic drop. Exactly right there. That's, that's what I wanted us to get at, at the core of Right, right there. What you just said.

[00:45:37] Caleb: And, and once you accept that and you realize that, you know, it goes back, it does away with the timeframe, it does away with all these things that we face, that simple sentiment, There is no right or wrong way to grieve somebody, demolishes, all of that. You no longer have the pressure of a timeframe. You no longer have social constraints. Once you understand that this is a journey, this will be a journey until I meet them on the other side until we see Josh and Andreas and get to play pool again. You know, I mean, and have these discussions and oh my gosh, if y'all talk about books for hours, again, with me and Andreas are gonna, me and Andreas are gonna have a beer.

[00:46:17] Caleb: Um, the

[00:46:18] Maya: flavor. We will, Josh and I will, and,

[00:46:20] Caleb: and I would expect that he would love it.

[00:46:22] Maya: You guys will play pool because I'm terrible at pool. So that will, that will be the meeting of the minds again. Right? So I love that you bring levity to this. It's, this is, so, this is, this is why this is. Deep and sad and fun and all of the things at the same time.

[00:46:38] Maya: But yeah, I mean, that's the point I wanted for, for both of us, right. To come across in this, in this portion of the episode is that there's no wrong way to grieve. But I have a little secondary part to this, and I want you to weigh in on this. The only wrong way to grieve is to not grieve, to not feel it, to not, right?

[00:47:01] Caleb: Yes, Yes. There is a very fine line. Uh, well, now it's my turn to have Jills because while denial helps you survive initially, if you stay there too long, it will, it will tear you apart. It will tear you down. It will tear you down mentally, physically, spiritually, in every way. It will destroy every relationship you have with friends and family who are still here.

[00:47:27] Caleb: You have. to grieve. You have to find a healthy way to express your emotions. You know, my dad, you know how he is, You know, he's very quiet, reserved. He does not put his personal life out there. I was concerned with him within the first couple weeks. Very concerned. I felt like he wasn't getting it out, that he was just pulled inside him.

[00:47:49] Caleb: So we sat outside on the porch one day. We had a cigar. We lit up and we were talking. I said, Dad, you know, are, are you grieving? You know, I asked him point blank. I said, Are you okay? Like, are you processing this? And he teared up. He started showing some real emotion, which were my dad's very strange thing.

[00:48:10] Caleb: And he, and he told me, he said, Yeah, He said, It's not easy. He said, You know, I'm not out, you know, crying in the streets, you know, ripping my clothes. I'm not doing what your mom wants me to do, but, but yeah, I'm definitely grieving the loss of my son, my oldest son. . And so we had that discussion and as a supporter, and again, it's so weird finding yourself because my parents lost a son.

[00:48:36] Caleb: I was going through it and a supporter, you know, just like you were with your family, you know, you're dealing with it, you're trying to survive yourself, but yet you still feel that need to be there for your family as well. So we've played both roles, you know, we're trying to survive, but we find ourselves supporting the other family members.

[00:48:55] Caleb: And it's a very, very unique dynamic when you're going through this cuz you play both roles and you have to be careful with how you play both roles and um, you know, it is such new territory cuz you don't expect to go through this. And um, but that's the thing. And if you don't check in and say, Hey, I'm not asking you how, I'm not asking you what you're doing, but are you grieving.

[00:49:21] Caleb: Are you processing this as best as you can? That's a very, very important question to ask. And that's not one anybody going through this process would ever get offended at. Uh, they would understand why you're asking that. You know, Hey, this is very traumatic. You know, are, are you grieving? Um, now there are some things you do get offended at. People say, during this, um, everything happens for a reason. ,

[00:49:48] Maya: Yeah, let's not say those things, right? I mean,

[00:49:51] Caleb: right there, there, there are certain things that America trying to help y'all stop, right? I just disclaimer two words. Two words. This is all we need to hear. I'm here. Yeah, that's it. Not knight.

[00:50:06] Maya: And then actually be there. And then actually follow through.

[00:50:09] Caleb: Follow, follow through. Not the thoughts and prayers, you know, And then you disappear and never hear from you again. But a genuine, a genuine, I'm here. . And then if that's needed, don't push. Don't pr, I'm here. That's all we need to hear. That's all we need to know. And that is what we will remember.

[00:50:27] Caleb: I remember you and Andreas, y'all were there. It sounds like it's such a simple thing, but that's not what we're wired to do. We wanna offer advice, we wanna make it better with words. We wanna fix the problem. You know, we want to, you know, take the grief away. You know, we wanna really support, but that's not what's needed.

[00:50:46] Caleb: This is our journey. This is, you know, our, our time to deal with it and to find out truly who you are. When you lose a sibling, you find out who you are. Very quick, very quick.

[00:51:00] Maya: Oh my God, you just made me so emotional that, that, that hits so deep with me. And I'm sure for all of you guys listening, I would imagine it hits you deeply as well, because Yes.

[00:51:14] Maya: Yeah, I love what you just said. It really. does because it, I mean, I don't even know how to follow that, but I I mean, you really do. You find out who you really are and on a different level, it's, I mean, how do you even describe it? I think anybody listens.

[00:51:34] Caleb: You can't, That's a surviving sibling gets it. It's what we have.

[00:51:38] Maya: Mm-hmm. .

[00:51:39] Caleb: It's ours. .

[00:51:40] Maya: Mm-hmm. . Yeah. It's, it's our, it's our,

[00:51:42] Caleb: you know what I mean? People listen.

[00:51:44] Maya: Our little club. Our little club. And if you're a supporter, like this is my new term that I'm using, I'd love that you've just embraced this, Caleb. That means it makes sense to you. Cuz guys, disclaimer, I did not tell him this term before coming on this Oh.

[00:51:56] Maya: At all. But, um, there are supporter supporters and that's so important. But I love how you said that we become supporters too, because that's the, the challenge in the dynamic, right? Because. Are going through such a significant loss, right? Our first friends in life, our first enemies in life, right? Cuz we fight with our siblings and like everything that goes on, like our first rivals, our first like all those things.

[00:52:20] Maya: But also our first confidants, our first like, you know, imaginary friends, like they become real as our sibling. Like all these fill in the blank, they're gone. But we now we have to be a supporter for our parents who are like our role models and everything to us. And that's huge. Like that's a huge role to be asked of us.

[00:52:42] Maya: And I think we need to give our par like our parents some grace because I don't know that they always know that that's being asked of them. Right? Which is a whole probably other episode, but that's a big thing for surviving siblings to take on. But you've mentioned Andreas a whole lot, so I do wanna talk about this.

[00:53:01] Maya: I don't know if we've talked about this in a long time, but I do wanna talk about this cuz I talked about it on season one. So I wanna bring. and I wanna go back to like the funeral a little bit. So Andreas and I were at um, the funeral for Josh of course. And again, I brought this up on season one and it's very eerie because I remember you were up there giving the eulogy the talk about Josh and I was just watching you.

[00:53:36] Maya: It was so emotional. I mean, because we came the day before for the viewing and then, and I remember turning towards my brother and like tiptoeing up cause even though I had heels on, but you know, Andreas was like very tall, very in his physical body, right? Super tall. Well over six foot. And I still don't even know exactly how tall he was.

[00:53:59] Maya: He was definitely over six one. But anyway, he was tall and I remember telling, I was very emotional when you were. It was emotional at, at the viewing, but when you were speaking, and I remember telling him, you know, I don't know if I could ever live if this ever happened to you. I just, I don't, I don't think I, and I remember without hesitation, he turned towards me and down towards me.

[00:54:31] Maya: And May, maybe we were sitting back down at this point, I don't know, like, maybe I think he's standing because, you know, I mean, this is 2009, guys gimme some slack or cut me some slack. So 13 years ago now. But, um, and I remember him going, Don't worry. Like he held my hands so tightly. And I know we've talked about this before, but to bring it up again, it's like in this detail.

[00:54:50] Maya: But he said, Don't worry. Like this will never be us. Like this will never happen. He's like, I'm always gonna be here for you. And like, I sit here right now just incomplete. I don't, I don't even know it. There's no words to say. because there was this depth in our relationship that through the highs, the lows through, I mean, you guys have listened to it.

[00:55:16] Maya: They're season one. I don't need to explain it, but that was such an eerie moment for me, and I feel like in that moment I felt you and you and I were so connected, and I just, I couldn't even imagine being in your situation. And then fast forward to 2016, I was standing in your situation and I didn't think I would be able to survive it.

[00:55:43] Maya: And I had a completely new perspective on it going through it. But the reason I bring this up again, and I reiterate this part of the story again in season two, having you on. It's because there's a secondary part to this, and I don't know that I've ever told you about this, but so here's the surprise for you on this.

[00:56:04] Maya: Okay? So that happened, right? And that was a lot. And it came, it came twofold, right? It came hall back around because there you were holding my hand as I was reading and crying and reading my brother's eulogy on the rock, right? Where I go and throw the sunflowers every year and drink the champagne as I shared on in my special edition episode this season.

[00:56:30] Maya: But there was an interesting thing that happened. So my grandfather died right after your brother died. Um, so your brother died in Sept late September. And of course you know this, you'll never forget that day. And my grandfather died in early November of 2009 and. . I never thought about, I was a p bearer in the funeral.

[00:56:59] Maya: I went up there. It was kind of, it was a sad day, of course, and it was a lot of death that was happening in my life. And then I went through another death, which was, you know, there's always like threes that happen. But I wrote, I remember one of our really good friends who you mentioned earlier, but I'm not, I'm not gonna say any names because that's not the point of the story, but it's a surviv sibling situation.

[00:57:20] Maya: I remember this particular person saying to you, she called me up and told me, she said, I talked to Kayla. And I said, About what? And she said About the fact that he hasn't called you about your grandfather dying. And I remember going, Why the hell would he do that ? I'm like, Why? Like, why? Like, why? Or even like something just like, Well, what?

[00:57:50] Maya: And she's like, Well, you know, I told him he should be contacting you and talking to you. And even though I didn't have a full grasp of what it was like to lose my sibling, especially in a traumatic sudden way where you have no way of processing it, I knew at that time that there's a significant difference between losing your 90 something year old grand or 92, 93 hour old, he was grandfather compared to losing your 26 year old brother.

[00:58:26] Maya: And my brother was 27, which still is eerie to me too. They were almost the same exact age. Still eerie. Still eerie to me to this day. Um, but I don't think I've ever told you that before because I shrugged it off. Why would you, why would you even be in that state of mind? I had zero expectations on. to do that.

[00:58:48] Maya: So I think, I think again, I wanted to bring that up to you. It came to me, it was kind of like driving thoughts or shower thoughts that I remembered. This is like, we were gearing up for this and I'm like, Oh my God, this is really wild. But you know, and it's no shame to the person that said this to me or anything like that cuz they just don't know.

[00:59:05] Maya: But it's bringing awareness to people. Right. And it's, and I always say too, that there's, there's no grief that's less than one or the other. Other, like, grief is grief. But it's also being aware of your surroundings in life and grief is no different. Why would I think, or why would I have the expectation of you as my brother from another mother and father to, to, to call me and be like, Hey, I'm so sad that your grandfather lived this full life for 90 something years and your, when you just lost your brother tr like suddenly.

[00:59:45] Maya: Uh, just over a month ago. I don't have that expectation of you. So I think it's really a story of resetting expectations, but I wanted to share that with you because it was, uh, I, I totally put it out of my mind. I've forgotten about it.

[00:59:59] Caleb: I, I remember, again, I'm not gonna say names. I hopefully y'all forgot, but , But no, I remember the conversation with sad individual. Um, I do. And that it actually kind of, kind of set me off because I felt like she was meddling. Um, now that you pray that up, uh, again, you and I had been through a lot at this point. I mean, aside from losing Josh, I mean just college alone, we had been through so much, which that can feel six new bot podcast, but you knew I was there for you.

[01:00:30] Caleb: Again, it's that expectation. Why was she imposing her expectation under what I should or shouldn't do when we weren't even thinking that way? And, and it, it's part of that mentality of, well, it's been you. It's been long enough for me. I should be able to be there for somebody else. W News flash, it took years before I could be there for somebody else.

[01:00:53] Caleb: There's still ways I can't be there for somebody else. I mean, I'm still struggling with that. Um, the first funeral, other than my, uh, grandma's, you know, of course, she, again, full life, healthy. The first funeral that I would have even stepped foot back into, I couldn't because of Covid. It would've been at my mom's.

[01:01:11] Caleb: I, I don't go to funerals. I can't do that. It's just something that, that's not how I wanna remember 'em. And it's not that I'm being callous or don't care. Um, I'll go to my dad's, I'll go to yours and that, that's about it. , you know, Um, it never even crossed my mind to step into another funeral until my mom passed.

[01:01:36] Caleb: Of course, like I said, I couldn't go there, but, . That's just not how I want to remember that person at all. Um, and, and it is funny because we've talked, touched on this earlier. You know, when Josh passed, we were outside the room and it really was almost instantly. He, he wasn't there. It was, it was just a body.

[01:01:58] Caleb: When we were preparing to, for the final goodbyes for the physical body, I was, I remember standing over the casket, you know, we had open casket for us in the back. Y'all were back there, you know, and Andreas. Um, but because of the oxygen he was on, his facial tissues had really swollen up. They'd shaved half his beard and just, it wasn't Josh, We didn't want people to see him that way.

[01:02:19] Caleb: So my uncle went and found a picture really quick, printed it out, and we decided to close the casket. But I was standing there and I remem very, very vividly remember his tie was crooked. So I reached down and fixed it and later on, um, I was like, How could you do that? . That wasn't my brother, That was a physical shell.

[01:02:38] Caleb: Um, to touch on the, the chilling moment you were talking, Andrea is squeezing your hand saying, You know, I'll always be here. He didn't break that promise. Josh didn't. Josh didn't leave me. You know, I'm not alone. I'm not without a brother. Um, he doesn't have his physical body at this time, but my brother's with me in every thought, in every prayer in every day of my life.

[01:03:01] Caleb: And I see him, I feel him. I communicate with him because of his memories and who he is, and, and they don't. I think that's how part of that maturing process is we realize, yes, they're physically gone and we, we hate that and we're truly devastated by it. But we also see, we, we see 'em in every day, in everything they do.

[01:03:23] Caleb: You know, we, we don't forget 'em. We don't just move on. and they are always with us. They are always here, you know, every single second, every breath I take, my brother's here with me, Andreas, is with you. It's a sense of loss in a way that they're phy. I can't pick up the phone and call 'em, I'll never be able to do that.

[01:03:45] Caleb: That doesn't mean I can't talk to him, you know? That doesn't mean that I can't have conversation with him. I can't go to him for advice. Because even in the short time we had together, and you're in a very unique situation where you were the older sibling, you know, Andreas would, you know, you felt that protection that, you know, Mama bear, , you know, don't, don't mess with my younger brother.

[01:04:08] Caleb: Whereas I was the younger one, so Josh was that for me. So many a time I'll be laying here and I know when I was in the hospital and I was struggling, wondering if I was gonna be seeing him many time soon. You know, I would just talk Josh, you know, hey, you know I'm, I'm in a tough spot. You know, what would you do?

[01:04:29] Caleb: How would you want me to get through this? You know, how would you approach this situation? And it was always with just the calm quietness. And that's still there. That communication, that line of communication is still there. That knowing he's with me is still there. Knowing that I'm gonna see him again, is still there.

[01:04:51] Caleb: And I will miss him with every single breath I take on, on this side of eternity. But when I take my final breath, they'll be right there waiting for us. And, and that really becomes a real truth when you lose somebody. We don't really think about what moves on. You know, what are they experiencing, what are they seeing?

[01:05:12] Caleb: You know, cuz it's not part of our everyday realm. We're wired to focus on what's in front of us. But in a way, them passing has actually opened us up. more than most people because we, we start to think about these things. We start to wonder about these things. It really brings a very different spiritual aspect into it that most people don't ever really stop and think about because they're, you know, put food on the table, daily grind.

[01:05:42] Caleb: But we're able to slow down and say, You know what? There's more, there's more to this. There's, there's more to the story. And we actually are able to get this very spiritual impact and experience that people who haven't been through this don't, don't get, they don't understand it. And it, it really, it grows you and matures you in who you are.

[01:06:12] Caleb: And as much as I miss Josh and we give anything to hear his voice, one last time, the person I've become on this journey through his death, I feel like has made me somebody he would be proud of, or maybe I wasn't before. You know, maybe because of our different personalities, you know, this, this grew me in ways that I wouldn't have grown.

[01:06:39] Caleb: And, um, it, it really is, like I say, just having that aspect too is just really, really interesting. And as you get older and understand it more, like I said, I, I wouldn't trade some of what I've been through for anything because it's made me who I am. It's made me understand a lot more than I ever would have being who I was.

[01:07:00] Maya: I think what you're saying is so deep and so difficult to say and so difficult to get to. I know it's emotional, but I think what's important to talk about here and to call out here is we're not saying that typical, like everything happens for a reason. Ugh, no. Like block those things from you, Like those people?

[01:07:24] Maya: Like no, like, and we're also not saying, you know, like, I believe in life, like, you know, with like the more surface stuff. Yes. I do think everything happens for a reason. Like, you know, you go from one job to another. Like, we're not talking about that. We're talking about something much deeper here. , we're talking about losing a sibling.

[01:07:41] Maya: This is deep. Right? But I'm not saying that Josh was meant to pass in the way that he passed. I'm not saying Andreas was meant to pass in the way that he passed. That's not for me to make that call on. But what I think that you're articulating in such a beautiful way, Caleb, is that you don't know, You're not the, the determining factor in that deep of a decision in, you know, everything happens for a reason at that level.

[01:08:14] Maya: But you are saying with what has happened, You wouldn't trade who you are now because of everything that you've been through. And I think that we all need to understand as surviving siblings and supporters listening to this right now, that this happened for you in 2009. This is a journey, but mine happened for me in 2016 and I think I just got to that point really last year, and I know you've been on this journey with me and I'm still feeling that more and more every day and feeling stronger and stronger every day.

[01:08:50] Maya: And then there's some days I feel super weak and I'm like, I'm gonna sit in bed today and just. Have little, have a little bit of wine and Dr. You know, and, and, and hang in a, in not an unhealthy way guys, but, you know, and have, have a girl's day with my Do os you know, and, and watch some movies or do whatever is good for me or go out with my friends or do something like that.

[01:09:08] Maya: I still have some days where I need to check in with myself. So that's a point. But I think you're making such a strong point here that I wanna point that out because you're not saying everything happens for a reason. Like you're not a greeting card or like a plaque that you hang up in a house. It's much more complicated than that.

[01:09:28] Maya: But it's what, how we go forward with this and how we, you know, choose to progress as a person with this. And it doesn't mean we're perfect, but you're able to look back now and say, Yeah. You know, Josh is, Josh is with me. He's proud of me and I agree 150%. And I love how you talk about the fact that you speak to him because I did a TikTok, um, recently and when you guys are listening to this, I'm sure I will have done many, many more

[01:09:59] Maya: But, uh, about ask and I'm asking people and telling people how I talk to my brother all the time. And that was life changing for me. Was it life changing for you when you started to actually talk and vocalize like out loud? Cause I didn't talk to Andreas right away. Like did you start talking to Josh right around?

[01:10:16] Caleb: No, I did not. Actually, the first time I vocalized, um, any of what I was feeling, uh, I was actually working with hospice at the time. This was months down the road and I was the first one in the office and the door, I kept opening. I shut it, I made sure it latched, it opened. Um, I went back latched, I mean, locked it, it.

[01:10:42] Caleb: And I was like, Josh, is that you, you picking on me? Like, and so it was very weird to do that, but that was actually the, the first time I was able to vocalize it, make a joke out of it, you know, my personality, who I am. But I stopped and I said, Okay, I'll joking aside, like what do I wanna say to you right now?

[01:11:04] Caleb: Like, all kidding, You know, Cuz you, I was like, you know who, who that. But all that aside, like, you know, I, I miss you. You know, I, I hate that I can't pick up the phone. Something good happens in my life and I can't pick up the phone and call you and tell you. And no, it was not, it was a well after what happened before I started vocally speaking to.

[01:11:30] Caleb: and the first couple times it was, it caught me off guard. And again, I don't know if that's a social thing or, or what, but that's just how it was for me. Um, others, people's experience may be different, but once I got through that barrier now, um, every year on the day he would die, would text his cell phone, I love you and I miss you.

[01:11:51] Caleb: This year I got a text back. Um, they had recycled his number. Finally somebody had it. And so I had to explain what had happened. My brother passed away and everything, but just sending that physical text and they told me, they said, Hey, as long as we have this number, feel free to message it any time you wanna talk to him.

[01:12:07] Caleb: But sending that physical text, you know, we used to text back and forth all the time. He was a teacher so he couldn't call. So we'd text and he'd answer me when he could. That was kind of our communication through the day. And so to send that text the very first time, I think that was part of this emotional growth.

[01:12:25] Caleb: And um, like we said earlier, something like this either makes sure or break. . And fortunately it didn't break me, and that's where I was going with the who I am today. Like I could have very easily ended up with a bottle in my each hand and, and drank myself to death. Um, he was my everything but the act of talking to him, getting back to that, the act of talking to him, it's so

[01:12:53] Caleb: therapeutic. Um, I'm a communications major, so to actually physically put words to my thoughts and not just be thinking, Oh, Josh, I miss you, but saying out loud, Josh, you know, I miss you. I wish you were here. Today's been a rough day. Today's been hard. You know, I hope it's been better for you. You know, and, and having that conversation.

[01:13:16] Caleb: And the thing is, my aunt, it's not a one-sided conversation. I may not physically hear his response from his voice, from, you know what? He was here physically, but I know. that he's aware, he hears and he, he knows I'm talking to him. I've never felt like I'm just sending words out into the void at all. Like, it doesn't feel like a fruitless activity like I'm trying to convince myself.

[01:13:42] Caleb: Um, it really is just a very raw, vulnerable, open moment. And in that time, in those moments, it doesn't feel one sided at all. It never has. And um, it's just been, like I said, just going through this has just been, there have been moments, There have been moments that you just had to step back and you're just floor.

[01:14:12] Caleb: and you know, to the normal person hearing me say that, Oh, that sounds crazy. You know, that mysticism, it's not like that,

[01:14:19] Maya: but it's not like that. No, I to I totally understand what you're talking about. Because what ha Like, I didn't speak out loud to my, to Andreas either. My brother, I don't even remember the first time that I did.

[01:14:33] Maya: I love that you remember the first time. I don't know that I remember the first time it was all like in my head. So you wanna sound crazy now? I sound crazy. I was like, I was talking to him like I would, in my head, I'd be like, Come into my dreams. Come to me. You know, maybe I would like, maybe the, the words would come whispering out my mouth that I didn't realize it right or something.

[01:14:52] Maya: But not consciously being like, I miss you. I love you. Give me a sign, Give me, But that, Through time. I wanna say it was at least two years or so. I don't know. You guys can can check me and tell me in season one cuz I know when I tell the story chronologically, it comes to me a little bit more easily. Cuz you know, I'm a writer so that's how it works for me.

[01:15:14] Maya: But

[01:15:14] Caleb: ah, you writers,

[01:15:16] Maya: I know, I know, right? I pioneers and writers, What are you gonna do with us? Right? But you know, I know that in the past two and a half to three years I've spoken to him out loud very consistently. Maybe a little bit longer than that, but consciously at least two and a half to three years.

[01:15:34] Maya: And it's a game changer. It really is. But I also feel like to your point too, you kind, there's kind of one event that does happen that pushes you to that. And I think it was, for me, it was a dream for you. It was that door. I love this door story that you're telling. That's awesome. It's so Josh, you, I love it.

[01:15:51] Maya: Um, I love that. But you know, for me, I think it was a dream. I, I, I get visited by Andreas in dreams. That's always been my thing. So I'm not shocked that that was probably. and I think I started with saying to him like, Visit me in a dream and tell me this, or you know, and he's very stubborn so he didn't always show up, but you know, then I would start,

[01:16:08] Caleb: He always was

[01:16:10] Maya: Yeah. In his physical hobby.

[01:16:11] Caleb: His timing not yours.

[01:16:13] Maya: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. He's not gonna, when he was ready my time. Yeah, for sure. Um, it's so him, but you know, I found that for me, just cathar then speaking it out how I felt and now it's, you know, not an everyday, everyday practice anymore. But really when I was starting to go through, definitely producing this podcast at the very beginning was

[01:16:37] Maya: It was a multi-time through the day focus cuz I was like, do you want this? Do you want me to do this? And there were consistent things, but I connect so much and I hope you guys do as well with what you're saying, Caleb, with you don't feel alone. It, it sounds, it might sound a little woo woo to the supporters that listen to the podcast, but.

[01:16:58] Maya: It, there is something to it. You feel their presence, you feel validated, you feel, And it doesn't necessarily mean that like your coffee mug went flying off the table. Like I'm not saying I'm psychic, you know, I don't know. I do have dreams that come to fruition, but that's not the podcast we're on right now.

[01:17:14] Maya: But, you know, I, you know, it's a comforting thing. And I do believe just like you do, that they are still with us. And you do get that, that feeling when you speak it out loud. I think it's healthy. I really do.

[01:17:30] Caleb: Absolutely. Um, like I said, you know, I'm not expecting, like I said, to see anything fly through the air, but, well, you know, like, okay, , I work for the post office.

[01:17:39] Caleb: Probably shouldn't say that, but I do. And let's just say there are many a day I get home and I talk to myself, just let it out. It's different than when I address something to Joshua when I am, you know, actively communicating with him. It, it's completely different. I mean, I know I'm talking just to talk, but when I talk to him, like I said, I know, I know it's being hurt.

[01:18:05] Caleb: It, it's not just words being spoken, it's just that connection, that connection that siblings will always have. Um, it's always gonna be there and it just goes back to why it affects us so much when they leave, but why them leaving has such an impact on who we are. Um, and, and I think that's really just, it's all interconnected.

[01:18:29] Caleb: It's all intertwined, and it all this dot leads to that dot and sometimes the dots don't make sense. I'm not gonna lie. Sometimes the picture's confusing. It just looks like a bunch of lines and scribbles. But over time, those lines and scribbles become the whole picture and you start to see how this fits here, how this fits here.

[01:18:50] Caleb: Um, you know how this. changed here. I mean, you really just see the, the morphing of the pieces as as they come together and they do come together and sometimes you lose a few pieces and you can't find them for a very long time. But eventually the puzzle will be complete and you'll see the whole picture and it'll all make sense. It just takes time. It's that journey.

[01:19:15] Maya: You guys can probably tell why we've been friends for as long as we've been friends. , . Cause we talk in, in these very, uh, we, we'd like to tell stories in a very linear way, but we also have a lot of metaphors that we use. So we can probably tell why we,

[01:19:31] Caleb: I have Josh. Thanks for that .

[01:19:34] Maya: Yeah. Yeah. I know, I, I know Andreas was quite the storyteller too. I feel, I feel like they come through to us, especially when we talk about this topic, which is very interesting. But no, I, I get what you're saying with that too, Caleb, because you know it. Yeah. Someone who, like if some of you guys have recently lost some, like your sister or brother, or God forbid, multis siblings, you may be thinking, I, there's, there's a lot of them out here.

[01:20:04] Maya: You guys are listening. I know. It's, I know it's a lot. Um, you may be thinking, what are they talking about? These puzzle pieces will come together. It will start to make sense. It's, it's not the puzzle that you thought. So I'm gonna add to your, add to yours and let me know what you think about this, and then I'm gonna ask you a question.

[01:20:23] Maya: But I, it's not the puzzle that you started out making. It's going to be a different puzzle. Right, But it's going to come together, right? It's going to come together. It's, But it's just not the puzzle that you thought.

[01:20:42] Caleb: It's not the one you see on the box. It's not the one you think you're getting. It's a surprise, ,

[01:20:47] Maya: It's a surprise, but, you know, But you know, what you think to add even more to this, this is, this is why we, our, our brother, sister, you know, you think that you're missing pieces. That's what you think, and you think you don't wanna finish your puzzle. Sometimes you really do on this journey. You really do. That's why I love your, your puzzle analogy, but keep going. Because it might not be, Let's say you're doing the Eiffel Tower like puzzle, it may turn out to be, you know, I don't know, the Mediterranean Sea instead, But that's not so bad either.

[01:21:23] Maya: It's just a different journey,

[01:21:25] Caleb: a different view, a different look.

[01:21:27] Caleb: Different perspective.

[01:21:29] Caleb: Same beauty, different picture. That's all. and they are, they all are beautiful in their own way. You know, there is no, no bad picture. It may be a surprise, it may catch you off guard, but at the end you're gonna see it for what it is.

[01:21:42] Caleb: And see, my brother love puzzles. I told you about the puzzle. He, the very first puzzle he completed by himself. So that's why it kind of rings with me. But, um, the puzzle that there's gonna be beauty in it no matter what it turns out to be. And like you said, there may be days you just wanna turn the table over and be done with it, but if you stick with it, you're really, really gonna appreciate the end result there. I truly believe that.

[01:22:07] Maya: I agree. Because what you'll find on this journey to your point is it's, it's your puzzle to finish, right? It's your journey to finish and it, it will feel like you're missing pieces because you are, you're missing your sibling. But keep going because I feel like it's kind of like almost a fantasy or euphoric kind of, um, Show or TV show or something where you keep getting the puzzle pieces and it's just, it's a, it's a new puzzle and you're gonna miss that other puzzle, but you've got another one to build and you can keep building on it.

[01:22:39] Maya: So Josh, this metaphor is for you cuz I feel like you would love this one, right? He would love this.

[01:22:45] Caleb: He would. Absolutely.

[01:22:47] Maya: Oh my gosh. Well, Caleb, this, we've unpacked a whole lot here and I just, that we have your vulnerability of course, on the podcast. But of course in our relationship, we've been friends for a very long time. but. . I wanna ask you before we close this out, a big, big question for all of the incredible surviving siblings that listen to this and the supporters as we've dubbed them, and you guys are incredible as well, because this is not an easy thing to go through. Mm-hmm. , it's not. What do you, There's again, big question.

[01:23:21] Caleb: Okay, Well put me on the spot. There we go.

[01:23:25] Maya: Don't put you on the spot. Right. Um, what do you wish that you knew? Like what do you wish you knew before going through those 15 days with Josh? Before losing Josh in September of 2009? What is something, if you could go back in time and tell that Caleb, that college, Caleb, with the Tecu born at the tequila, all of those things, what's something, what's some wisdom that you could give yourself?

[01:23:49] Maya: Or even what's some wisdom to add kind of a part to to it? What's some wisdom that you would give yourself maybe. After the dust settles, right? Because there's a lot of our listeners here that are fresh in their journey in the surviving sibling journey, and that's where I, I find myself giving a lot of advice, and by no means a clinical psychologists here, but I can share my journey.

[01:24:14] Maya: So I would love to hear, um, you know, at kind of those two parts, kind of part A and part B. Like, what would, what do you wish you knew before? I mean, cuz we never expect to go through this. Um, we prepare for our parents, we prepare for our grandparents, we prepare for, you know, but we don't prepare for our siblings.

[01:24:35] Maya: And then kind of, you know, maybe part B, like, what do you wish you would've known for? You know, leaving the hospital, leaving the funeral, like the what's next kind of part. So would love to hear that from you.

[01:24:47] Caleb: Wow. It's not an easy question, is it? Just throw me on, throw it out there like that. So e first part, what comes to mind right away when you say, what do I wish I hadn't known?

[01:24:57] Caleb: What, what, you know, what would I have done differently? Memories, like you said, you never know when the last breath is gonna be, is gonna be, when it's gonna happen. And I spent so much time in my younger days trying to get out of this town, focusing on the future, the future, the future. Suddenly I didn't have a future with my brother and we had some great times and some amazing memories, but I would say slow down if you had the relationship like you and Andrea's.

[01:25:24] Caleb: Not, not saying we didn't have our moments where we wanted to kill each other, but we were close. Make those memories. Enjoy the here. Not always looking to the future, you know, those memories are all we have. When somebody's gone, and as many as I have, I wish I had 10,000 more. You know, slow down. You know, if you have a sibling that you're close with and that, you know, don't, don't be so quick to.

[01:25:50] Caleb: You know, get away. Oh well, we'll make, we'll make time later. We'll catch up later. Go to lunch now. You know, go grab a drink, grab a beer, have a conversation on the phone. FaceTime technology has gotten so much more advanced. Keep those connections strong. And if, God forbid, this does happen to a supporter, hasn't had to go through this yet.

[01:26:11] Caleb: If it does happen, those connections and those memories are going to be key in whether or not this makes you or breaks you. For me, it's about, it's about those memories. You know, I was so quick to run away from home and Josh has it. Josh will take care of everything there. He has the responsibility and I should have just slowed down and really enjoyed the time that I had.

[01:26:36] Caleb: And of course, that's something, you know, looking back, you, you know, But yeah, I would slow down, slow down, make those memories. They only take seconds to make, but they can literally mean everything when that person is gone. And, you know, part B kind of, kind of rolls into it. Slow down. Don't try to finish this journey.

[01:26:57] Caleb: You know, don't try and force the pieces when they don't fit. It's just accept the fact that this will probably take until the day you die. Enjoy what you have, you know, make those memories and just slow down. Don't force. Step seven, if you're not past step one, you know, I mean, stay where you're at. Find comfort where you're at.

[01:27:23] Caleb: Slow and steady win's the race. And this may not be a race we ever win. And just accept that. Accept that this is how life is, and embrace that. And once you slow down and you, you move slowly and consistently through this process, you're gonna come out the other side so much better. because you're not putting that pressure on yourself to be here, to be there.

[01:27:52] Caleb: Well, okay, it's five years. I shouldn't be on step two. Well, maybe step two is what you need. Maybe you just need to slow down and embrace step two. So for me, and I say every journey's different, but they kind of roll together. I was so quick to grow up and get away that I feel like I lost a lot of memories I could have had, and then trying to get better air quotes again, missing a lot of moments that I need to grieve properly.

[01:28:21] Caleb: If you rush grief and you move too quickly through it, it will catch up with you. You cannot outrun it. It may be a few years down the road, but it will catch up with you. So slow down where you're at and just stay where you're at and find comfort where you're at. It's okay to be where you are. . So on the spot. That's the best I can do. ,

[01:28:47] Maya: I think you did an an amazing, amazing job that, No, that's incredible. And thank you for doing your part A and part B because I think it's, as I've continued to do these interviews, I've realized there's kind of a part A and a part B to it because kind of wish you knew before. I mean, how could you ever prepare for before?

[01:29:10] Maya: But there's also a part of wanting to know the after part of it. And I love your advice about slow down because I just think as a society as a whole here and it, I mean we're both in America, but I think this is international advice because you guys are all around the world. , we just are moving so fast with social media technology and that's not all a bad thing, but when it comes to something that has been around since the beginning of time, that is a bad thing.

[01:29:41] Maya: It, it can be a negative thing because we need to embrace what is natural to us. And grief is something that has been around from the beginning. And so we need to go with our instincts and what's natural to us and slowing down and being, if, if you go through something quickly, that's okay, but if you need time for it, slow down and be in the moment with it.

[01:30:04] Maya: So I think your advice is really beautiful and I really appreciate you taking the time to explain that to everyone listening, the surviving siblings and also the supporters. It's something I wish I knew because I put a lot of pressure on myself going through this in, you know, most of, most of 2017 was really my time and I was like, why the heck am I not over this?

[01:30:25] Maya: Why am I not feeling this? Why am I all really, I didn't know at the time. Toxic terminology, right? Things that I didn't realize we're toxic. Well, here I am 2022 talking about it and I've accepted it, but you know what? I haven't moved on, but I'm okay. I've moved forward. So I absolutely love your advice. I think that is amazing and I think Josh is very proud of you.

[01:30:54] Caleb: Thank you. Thank you very much for having me. I've, like I said, for the topic, it is, I've had a great time. This has been absolutely amazing. .

[01:31:04] Maya: Well, I know that you are definitely on social media, so if people wanna connect with you, I know that you are in my social media group, the Surviving Siblings Podcast Group, but why don't you tell everybody, um, how they can connect with you mostly on Facebook is where you're most active. So why don't you tell us?

[01:31:21] Caleb: That's the majority of, of what I do on social media. Um, if you do send me a message and I don't respond right away or add me as a friend, um, there is a good chance one of my accounts has gotten banned. My primary account from stuff I posted 13 years ago, got a warning today. I was like, Oh, that was funny.

[01:31:38] Caleb: But no, it's, it's Caleb Harrison, c a l e b h a r r i s o n. Feel free to stop by, shoot me a message. Add me as a friend. Um, I'd be more than happy to, if I can offer even the smallest amount of peace in a time like this, I'm more than happy. To, to do so. I mean, if it's just a conversation, if it's sharing a quick joke, whatever it is, please feel free to reach out because it is, it's, it's a much larger community than we realize, but it's also mostly ignored.

[01:32:13] Caleb: Um, and now this is that fast-paced world, you know? Okay. Okay. Time's over, times over. Well, it's, so anybody ever wants to reach out, feel free. Um, I'm, I'm on Facebook. Like I said, I have the other accounts. I'm not ever on them, so feel free to look me up.

[01:32:27] Maya: That's your go-to and we'll tag that in the show notes and Of course.

[01:32:31] Maya: And he is also in, uh, the new Surviving Siblings podcast group, so you guys can find him there too. So Caleb, thank you so much for being here, and thank you for being my older brother and I love you so much. Thank you for sharing.

[01:32:46] Maya: Thank you so much for listening to the Surviving Siblings Podcast. If you enjoyed this episode as much as I did creating it for you, then share it on your chosen social media platform. And don't forget to tag us at Surviving Siblings Podcast so that more surviving siblings can find us. Remember to rate, review and subscribe to the podcast. And don't forget to follow us on all social media platforms. We're on Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok at Surviving Siblings Podcast. All links can be found in the show notes, so be sure to check those out too. Thank you again for the support. Until the next episode, keep on surviving my surviving siblings.