Anne Pinkerton's Journey Through Grief and Loss After David's Fatal Fall

[00:00:00] Welcome to the Surviving Siblings podcast. I'm your host, Maya Roffler. As a surviving sibling myself, I knew that I wanted to share my story, my brother's story. I lost my brother to a homicide in November, 2016. And after going through this experience, I knew that I wanted to share my story and his story.
[00:00:31] And now it's your turn to share your stories.
[00:00:35] Hey guys, welcome back to the surviving siblings podcast. We have another incredible surviving sibling here today. Some of you may already know her. Her name is Anne Pinkerton and welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me, Maya. I have been so excited to get you on the show and chat with you after meeting you and having you do an incredible [00:01:00] session at our summit.
[00:01:01] It was such a wonderful event and your amazing writing session, which we're going to get into all of your writing very soon on this episode, but I wanted you to come on to tell your story and tell us a little bit about your brother, David. If you can kick us off, Anne, and tell us a little bit about your dynamic growing up and your relationship and family dynamics, that'd be awesome.
[00:01:25] Sure, absolutely. I have a kind of funny family structure in some ways, although when you're a kid, you don't know what you don't know. So I was born into a family of brothers who were from my mom's previous marriage. So I'm her baby, but I'm my dad's only. So they married a little bit later. So my half brothers, Tommy and David.
[00:01:50] We're nine and 12 years older than me. And I think because of the age gap and frankly, just because David liked me, he took on [00:02:00] a lot of caregiving when I was little. The guy literally changed my diapers and babysat me and played with me without even complaining. I feel like. In some ways I looked up at him a little bit like an uncle as much as a brother, because there was such a caregiving kind of relationship there, especially when I was tiny.
[00:02:23] But he was also really instrumental in terms of Getting me excited about doing things that ultimately were the things he was passionate about, like water skiing and learning to ride a bike and taking hikes in the woods and checking out cool plants anything that had to do with nature and sports was his jam.
[00:02:45] And so I remember really vividly. Growing up with him, always having a lot of fun with him outside. Even if that was just in the paradise of our backyard we were always doing fun things together, playing [00:03:00] games and he was just a hell of a lot of fun, actually. Yeah I've totally gotten that from reading your book and the conversations we've had so excited to learn more from you in this episode about that.
[00:03:13] But I love that. And I think I, again, I've connected to your story in so many ways because my brother and I, even though we didn't have the age gap and he's not my half brother, I We'll talk more about that in a little bit, but I, we connected in nature as well. And so just re again, reading and learning more, I'm just like, yes, I totally get this because those are some of the most magical memories.
[00:03:36] When people ask me, they're like, what is your best memory of you and your brother? It's always something in nature. Is it like that for you too? Like when someone asks you or what are your, what do you think? Yeah, I think so. Even though there were certainly family birthdays and holidays and things like that where we had some really good times together.
[00:03:54] I do think it was outside. There's a, Chapter in my book about our cabin in East [00:04:00] Texas, where our parents took us to be outside of the city of Houston, where we grew up. And it was an amazing getaway. It was really quite humble little cabin, but it was just off of a lake. So we got to do swimming and water skiing and boating, and, we would throw in a boat and just go around and, And check out the trees and the frogs and, so every, yeah, everything I think about when I was a kid that was really magical with him had to do with being outside doing something fun in nature.
[00:04:34] Yeah. So tell us a little bit about because David was a little bit older in life, not crazy old. He definitely should have been around a lot longer, but he had quite the life for a while. So tell us a little bit about your dynamic as adults and like how that evolved. And then, of course, we'll talk about, unfortunately, how he passed.
[00:04:54] Sure. Because he went off to college by the time I was, in elementary school. [00:05:00] I visited him a lot when he was at the University of Texas, Austin, where he was studying premed. I think he maybe started actually studying biology and realized that was not going to be the lucrative career.
[00:05:10] He was looking for. But he was always a scientist. And, very curious mind. He pivoted to pre med and my mom and I would drive out to Austin to see him a lot. And so it was always a big deal to go see my big brother. And, in this cool town Austin is, and was a really great city.
[00:05:29] And I always thought it was a super cool place to visit and it was a big deal to go for the weekend. And then when he ended up in medical school in Galveston at the University of Texas Medical Branch there, I would similarly go out to visit him with my mom. And that's where I got to understand him as a doctor. There's some scenes in the book that really go into him doctoring that are interesting and harrowing in some ways, but it was really fun to get to know him as a doctor. And then, I'll never forget that in [00:06:00] Galveston, which I think most people know is right on the Gulf of Mexico is actually where he got involved with.
[00:06:06] Triathlons. And so I remember going and seeing him run down the seawall there as part of a race and swim in the Gulf of Mexico and ride his bike around there. So it feels like to me, even though we were always an active family and we did lots of stuff like that, he's the one that, that kind of took it and.
[00:06:25] And really became competitive with it. And I feel like probably someone in my family would tell me I'm wrong on the timing, but I feel like it was in medical school when he really got excited about competing and that the triathlon was one of the sort of gateway drugs to him, loving to do all things competitive in the outdoors, he's always very multidisciplinary and liked to do everything.
[00:06:49] Yeah which you talk about quite a bit in the book, and I felt like I got to know him quite a bit because of that, and so I definitely wanted you to touch on that, like when that moment happened, and [00:07:00] I think there's a lot of insight to what you're saying, too, because that's how you remember it, and I think that's what's really important in anybody's story is that we all have our own unique relationship and memories, and you being able Yeah.
[00:07:13] Significantly younger than your two brothers, like you have this interesting perspective. And I think that's again, what I try to always convey in these episodes that, yes, maybe other people in the family remember things differently, but these are your memories and this is when you remember this moment.
[00:07:27] And I think there's a lot of beauty in that. And that's why it's important to share our perspective as a sibling. And this is the journey I remember. I remember visiting him in school and then in, medical school, and then this is what he was doing. And it helped. It helps paint not only us sharing the story of our sibling, but also like our memories.
[00:07:43] I think it's important. Thank you. I do too. And I, as a writer and as a memoirist I, memoir coming from the word memory, which we all know is fallible and slanted and everybody remembers different things about every situation. [00:08:00] I do think whatever we remember and why we remember it. Says something true, even if it isn't what a journalist would say is, fact checkable because I do think what we remember matters and it tells us something unique about the experience.
[00:08:15] So I agree and I have a little disclaimer in my book about that because I, I admit everybody remembered things differently. And I think when someone dies, that can also be really strange and disorienting if people are remembering things differently, and then you get into it yeah, I agree.
[00:08:33] And I've gone through the same thing. I'm sure a lot of people listening to this will be like, yeah, I remembered it this way, but my brother or sister or my mom or dad membered it because it's and I think that's an amazing thing to touch on in this episode. And Yeah, I love that you have that disclaimer in there, too.
[00:08:48] I think it's great. So tell us a little bit about where, as we're leading up to talking about how David died, tell us a little bit about where you guys were in [00:09:00] that moment in time, like in your relationship, where you were. You go really deep into this in your book, Where You Close, but are, We'd love to hear your insight in that and paint a picture.
[00:09:09] Where were you, where was he, what was going on in your life at the time? Sure. So I moved to Massachusetts at 18 to go to college and I never went back to Texas, much to my family's chagrin. But we, so we had a geographic distance at that, after that time.
[00:09:25] It's interesting in retrospect, feel really sad that I didn't get him to where I live more. That was one of the things I was always trying to cajole him to do. And I was trying to sell him on the fact that I live in an area where there, there are small mountains and there are bike paths and there are all these fun things.
[00:09:42] And. This is the thing that, that I think all of us who've lost someone in our lives think about in retrospect is we thought we had time and ended up that he only came up here for my college graduation and then for my wedding. So we didn't get to [00:10:00] spend a lot of time. Doing things up here.
[00:10:02] And I did feel the distance in a way that was sometimes painful to me. And certainly I went back to Houston regularly to visit my family. So I got to see him there, but it was never as often or as I don't know, as deep or rich as I wanted it to be. And I think there was a little girlness about me looking up to my big brother that never ended because I always thought he was the coolest and I always wanted to be.
[00:10:31] In some way, on a level playing field with him. I was really, I was itchy to be an adult with him because then it felt like I wouldn't be the baby all the time. So we talked and I knew that he was often on various excursions and adventures around the globe whenever he wasn't working he did end up working as a radiologist and had a really thriving career.
[00:10:57] But he partly loved it because it gave him a good paycheck [00:11:00] and a lot of vacation time. So he would take off and travel around the globe. I'm not sure that even if I talked to everyone in the family, I could put together a list of all the places he traveled because he was just curious about seeing everything anywhere.
[00:11:16] That was beautiful. And probably more than some people who would love to see cities. He loved, of course, wild outdoor spaces. And so he was in places like the Badlands in North Dakota or in Iceland, or, he wanted to be somewhere really spectacular where he could. Be wowed by the whole environment.
[00:11:34] And so he was always on one or another excursion and I would hear about it the holidays or we would talk on the phone and he would very humbly tell me that he won all the things. And Because he was in an adventure racing team and he was in cyclocross racing and he did ultra marathons and you name it, he was interested in it.
[00:11:58] Although I learned later how much he [00:12:00] didn't like swimming from our surviving brother, which I thought was very strange, but I didn't even think, I didn't think about where he must be. I think one of the most disorienting things for me when he died was that I didn't even know. What he was up to. It was just always another thing.
[00:12:17] And I would hear about it when it was over and I would hear how it went. And so I wasn't always tracking exactly where he was but it turned out that he had taken off on some solo excursions, which didn't terribly surprise me because after competing with teams, I knew that he was interested in doing some stuff on his own.
[00:12:41] But I didn't know that he had taken off to Colorado to try to scale all of the Colorado 14ers, which are 50 plus, 14, 000 foot range mountains. So huge. Yeah. Yeah. I just got back from a visit there and I can tell you again how [00:13:00] very huge they are. Yeah. Now, Anne, I know that's, it's so wild that we're recording this episode and you just went there.
[00:13:07] It's like perfect timing. Was that the first time you had seen those or was it just like a refresher for you where wow, this is where my brother was or was this the first time? This is an interesting thing that I wonder whether some of your listeners would resonate with is that it's actually the third time I've gone back to the mountain where my brother died.
[00:13:29] Which my, even my own family thinks is very strange, but I've been very curious about the different ways people grieve and the different things that work for different people. I think before I lost my brother and he was certainly my first major loss, I didn't really have a good sense of just how weird it would be to be around other people who were processing things so differently.
[00:13:57] So I [00:14:00] love going back to the mountain. It felt this time, especially like a sort of pilgrimage that was just an homage to him. It was just a place to go connect with him. And for the first time, and as it's been almost 16 years now for the first time, it wasn't really terribly sad. The first time I went was the year after.
[00:14:25] He died with our mom and that was really intense. And then I went on the 10th anniversary with my then husband to mark that, that big date and to finally let go of the ashes that I had been clutching. But this time was really cool. I took my best girlfriend, we were exploring and stopping everywhere that seemed cool and it just, honestly, I came down from, I'd say I came down from the mountain, I did not climb the whole mountain to be clear, but I went a little ways up and when I came down, she [00:15:00] said, Was the SAF for you?
[00:15:01] And I said, for the first time, it really just felt like, I think he would be excited that we were on an adventure together. I think he'd be pleased that we're outside doing something fun and different in a really gorgeous place. He did do me the great courtesy of dying somewhere extraordinary, making pilgrimages if it was in some awful place, but the San Luis Valley in Southern Colorado is just spectacular.
[00:15:34] Yeah, for me it felt really, I'm, I almost, I'm not a terribly spiritual person. It felt almost like I just went to church. It really was like and it's funny because I always thought going back to this issue of nature, that David and I always connected over nature and that nature was really our church.
[00:15:50] Neither of us were terribly, at least not in any kind of organized, religious way. Involved in that kind of thing. But I think getting outside has always brought on those. [00:16:00] There's something bigger than us feelings. And so being at the mountain really, it really did feel like.
[00:16:05] Almost totally. It was really cool. 
[00:16:08] We hope you're enjoying this incredible episode of the surviving siblings podcast. I'm your host, Maya Roffler. We'll be back in just a minute after hearing from our incredible sponsor.
[00:16:22] If you've lost a sibling, trust me, I know exactly how you feel. I'm Maya. I'm the host of the surviving siblings podcast, but I'm also the founder of the Surviving siblings support. I know that going through this experience is extremely difficult, whether you've lost a brother like me, a sister, or perhaps more than one sibling.
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[00:17:51] I was literally going to ask you that and you already answered it, which is perfect. I was going to say, did you feel like maybe that was your spiritual that, and it, you totally [00:18:00] answered it. Yeah. And it's interesting you say that and I'm really glad that we're talking about this because When I do talks or I, chat with siblings or do lives.
[00:18:09] And I'll often say there's a lot of components to the grief journey. And I do feel like it's physical. I feel like it's mental. I feel like it's emotional and it is spiritual. And sometimes people are like I'm not religious or I'm not this. And I'm like, sometimes it's just going out in nature and being connected.
[00:18:23] I'm not religious, but I'm definitely spiritual. But for me, I connect with you on that because nature was just, again, a thing for me and my brother too. Being out in nature, big connector for me too. And everybody has their own identity and spirituality. It does not have to mean anything religious.
[00:18:40] I'm very clear when I tell people that. So you're a beautiful example of that because whatever makes you feel connected and helps you along your healing journey is what you need to do. And that's what I mean by the spiritual component of things. It doesn't mean that you are praying to God or Buddha or whatever you're into.
[00:18:59] It [00:19:00] doesn't always mean that. It means there's, something, I feel like it means that there's something bigger than us, right? And there's a way to connect us to our loved one who passed away. That's what I feel like in that part of the journey. And I do that you also are talking about going back to the site because there's a lot of you guys that listen to this.
[00:19:17] I know That's a thing. People want to go back to where it happened. I've had, people on the show that talk about it. And then there's some people that aren't into it. They're like, I don't even want to go. And I think it's okay. I think both ways are okay. I think you have to do what's right for you because for me I'm like you, it's like an evolution, but I think your journey is really beautiful.
[00:19:38] And the three different visits, your companion was so different for all three different visits. And then also where you were in your. Your grief journey, but your life journey too. And I think that's powerful. Thank you. Yeah, I agree I think one of the things that in terms of grieving having spent a whole bunch of years now thinking about this And [00:20:00] it's something I do share when I do writing groups about this is it's really important that people not feel that there is a path that This notion of the steps that Elizabeth Cooper Ross laid out and that there's some kind of linear thing that we're all going to go through.
[00:20:17] And then at the end, we're going to. We're going to come out whole again. It's just, it's not quite how it works. And as you say, everybody's experience is as unique as they are and as unique as every family is and every friend group and whoever is impacted by the loss. And so I try really hard to remind people that they needn't be pinned down by some sort of prescribed notion about what it's going to be like.
[00:20:45] I also, and I think this story's a good one for that. I try to tell 'em there is light at the end of the tunnel. There, things do get better ultimately, and I think when you're really in the throes of fresh grief, it's [00:21:00] so hard to imagine that you're ever gonna be okay again. That you're ever gonna laugh again, that you're ever going to think of your person that you lost without bursting into tears.
[00:21:10] And I think. The good news about doing the grief work is I think it makes us more resilient and more appreciative about the things that we're here to enjoy if they aren't. And so there have been some perspective things about going through it that have been actually really poignant for me. And I do really try to.
[00:21:33] Let people know, and I hope everyone listening here, regardless of where they are on their path, they know that at some point things really do get better and you can go back and look at something really hard. And it can be. beautiful and emotional to be sure, but not agony like it was at the beginning.
[00:21:55] Yeah. And again, I think, you sharing with us going with your mom [00:22:00] and then, your husband and now your friend, it's so interesting. It's like trifecta and evolution, but I agree with you. And I think a lot of people, and had I listened To us saying that years ago, where if some of you guys listening might think it's never gonna feel better.
[00:22:16] I'm never gonna be better. Trust me. I was there. I know you were there and we, it feels impossible. It feels like it's always going to hurt horribly. It's always going to be like this big mountain. We can't climb like it's feels impossible. But. Something I always say, and you've probably heard me say this a million times and to like everyone else, that whole idea of like time heals all wounds.
[00:22:41] That's not what we're saying, but what I like to say is I like to rephrase it and say time allows us to heal and versus this whole because. Again, that's shedding light on the fact that we all have our own timeline. There's some of us that are in this for, a couple of decades. And then we're like, Oh, I'm ready to process it.
[00:22:59] Now, some of us are [00:23:00] like, let's process right in the moment. So it's not a matter of time heals all wounds. It's a matter of time does allow us to heal and gives us the tools. Like you said, to be more resilient and understand what we're going through. And. Whether it's reading your book, listening to the show, getting in groups that understand us.
[00:23:18] That's a big difference as well as being around people that understand us. And those things do take time. And so that's why I like to highlight that too. So yeah, I think you bring up a lot of great points, but I think. Did you feel this way too? And when people told you in in the beginning or when you were really in the throes of it, if someone were to say, don't worry, it will get better.
[00:23:38] Didn't you almost feel like, what are you talking about? No, it's not like I felt that way. I felt very angry. No way. Or were you open to that advice? Because I feel like sometimes when people listen to episodes or, anything that we do, They're like, no way it won't. And then it's interesting if they come along the journey with us because it does shift for them.
[00:23:56] So I'm interested to see if you felt that way in the beginning too. It's [00:24:00] so interesting you asked that because I don't remember anyone saying that to me. And I actually probably could have used someone saying that to me. I think one of the reasons I'm so grateful to be here today and grateful for the work you're doing and for the other people who are talking about these issues and writing about these issues and bringing them to light is that a mere 16 years ago, and you and I've talked about this, there was so very little to be found in the way of support for siblings.
[00:24:31] I reached out to Compassionate Friends and they told me there were no sibling groups. I looked for books and I could barely find any. I will say I was really excited to, to know you had Elizabeth Davida Rayburn on your show because her book, The Empty Room, was one of the only things I could find.
[00:24:50] Find what are the only ones, and I adore her. I know. Crazy. She's amazing. And I think because she not only shared her own experience of losing her brother, but also [00:25:00] brought so many other siblings into the conversation, it was the first time I felt like I wasn't the only person in the whole wide world who had lost a sibling.
[00:25:09] Was having a hard time about it. Because, and I'm sure many people on your show go into this. I know they do this issue of being asked about your parents and whether they were married and whether they had children, you're going. But I'm standing right here and I was the sister. Do I not count?
[00:25:31] That was such a big part of my experience. So I don't remember anybody saying it will get better. I remember bursting into tears in inappropriate places and people asking me what was wrong and me feeling like it was the most obvious thing in the world. My brother died. I shouldn't.
[00:25:50] Everybody know this about me all the time. I got I got interested in that notion of wearing black arm bands that people used to have or wearing all black and [00:26:00] morning. Cause I was like, everyone needs to know I'm carrying this every single. Moment that I'm awake and it's coloring everything.
[00:26:09] And so I burst into tears. They'd asked me, it was wrong. I would remind them of this catastrophic event that had turned my whole universe upside down. And they would say things like, Oh, you're still upset about that. And I would be like, it's been two months. No, I didn't have anybody say it's going to get better.
[00:26:28] I think if someone had said that I would have felt like they at least understood that it was really bad right then. And I feel like it wasn't even acknowledged for you, which is again, a lot of you guys listening feel that way too. And I did too. I definitely did. And I think the reaction that I had when ever somebody was like, Oh, it'll get better.
[00:26:49] I was like, Disregarding that because I was like, I think I felt a lot like you because it was like nobody had really listened to me. So by the time that poor person came along, that was trying to tell me that I was like, [00:27:00] whatever, nobody knows what I'm going through. I think it's interesting though, you talking about wearing all black and all, I connect with that too.
[00:27:05] No, one's ever come on here and talked about that before. And so it's why it's so important to share as many stories as possible. And I. Think that perspective is very interesting. I was that way too. I was like, I want to wear all black. I need I like wearing black anyway, but that's a whole other podcast. But I get what you're saying though. It's like, how do I show this to the world to make it. Real in a sense, because it was like, wasn't real to anybody else, but it was, it was real. What happened to your parents is real. What happened to, fill in the blank. But how do I show that I'm hurting too?
[00:27:36] Yeah. A lot of people feel invisible too. I think it's a great point. One of the side things I got fascinated in was grief ritual in general, and certainly other cultures do it better than we do. And also we used to do it. Better. And I'm going to say better, because I just think it was more honest that everybody's mortal here and everyone's going to lose somebody.
[00:27:58] And that used to be a more [00:28:00] public situation. Part of it was the markers of clothing or bands or whatever, but it was also that people came together in community to grieve and it wasn't considered like this contagious, terrible thing where people were afraid to talk to you. So I think even American culture has gotten more and more like worried about admitting that we're emotional beings walking around carrying hard things all the time.
[00:28:30] And I think it's really to our detriment. I think it's a sad thing that we aren't talking with each other. Cause I really, I also know there's a pervasiveness of loneliness in this country. And I think. That doesn't help because I've never been as lonely as I was grieving my brother because I felt so like a freak, that nobody else had this happening.
[00:28:53] And this is what's so gorgeous about the community that, that you and others are building is that people realize for the first [00:29:00] time, maybe they're so not alone. They're incredibly unalone. There are tons and tons of brothers and sisters out there feeling exactly the same way. And so it's not crazy to take this one hard.
[00:29:15] It's a big one. Our siblings are supposed to be with us our whole lives. It's just, it's it's a rule. That's what we anticipate. It's what we think we can expect. So when the rug gets pulled out from under us and we lose somebody, we thought we were going to have into old age and who knew our origin story.
[00:29:33] It's a very big deal. Yeah. And another great point you brought up, Anne, knew our origin story and like your brother, he was there, watching you changing your diaper. He knew it all. Like he really had been there from, so I totally understand that. That's but I agree with you on all of that.
[00:29:50] And I think it's just, we've chatted about this before too, but it blew my mind when I first told my story. I just, yeah. Wanted to remember my brother and, put it out there [00:30:00] and the people that came forward Talking to me and you guys are still listening and still a part of this community and make it possible But it's like I was blown away because I felt just like you so alone.
[00:30:11] It was the loneliest experience I've been through my entire life and I've been through some other stuff, but this was the loneliest experience because you felt weird You felt like This is not supposed to happen. Nobody goes through this. So not true. A lot of people go through this. Millions and millions of people go through this.
[00:30:27] It's just not being talked about. And. Now we do thank God. But I think that was a moment for me because I was like, I don't want all these people to connect with me, but oh my God, I'm not alone and I'm not crazy. Like you said, and that is a moment. And that is really a turning point, I think, in all of our journeys and hopefully everything that, you're doing, I'm doing everybody out here telling their stories, it changes that, and. I want to get into a really important part of your story and David's story. And. In [00:31:00] reading your book, I connected with it right away. It's like the, how I begin the entire show, the call, we all remember the call or if we had to make the call or receive the call. And that's a moment in your book too.
[00:31:13] And I'm like, Oh, another thing a siblings have in common. Can you tell us a little bit about what that was like? And then obviously tell us a little bit about David's passing and then we'll get a little more into. How you decided to write the book, because this is all kind of an evolution that you went through.
[00:31:27] Sure. My then husband was a touring musician, and I'm still pinching myself that he was home the night that The Call came in. This was back in 2008, so we didn't all have iPhones on our hips, believe it or not, there was a time like that. So he and I had actually gotten home late. And the phone rang after midnight, which was incredibly bizarre.[00:32:00] 
[00:32:00] And we did have caller ID, so I could see it was my mom. And that made it even weirder because she's my mom. And I remember being so freaked out looking at the caller ID that I didn't pick up. It was like, when you know something is very wrong, just because of all of the cues surrounding it. And my brain didn't go to what that might be, but it just, the whole thing felt so eerie.
[00:32:30] And of course she called back, then I had to pick up. But I think many of us have had that experience of that. It's too late. This person wouldn't normally be calling at this time. What's wrong. And it was very much that way. And at that point she was calling to tell me that David was missing.
[00:32:49] And having a missing person is a whole other thing, too. I'm, while I'm, I will forever be heartbroken that he died, I think it would be much, much [00:33:00] harder had we not found him and found him quickly, because the missing part, ooh, that puts you on pins and needles in the weirdest way. And I did a lot of bargaining during that period of almost two days while we waited.
[00:33:14] That was some of the longest waiting, it was very painful. And I know that there are families who have to wait forever sometimes. And I just. It just kills me to think about it because that is, I'm not sure I'm a person that believes in exactly this notion of closure, but I think it would be incredibly difficult to process what was already a harrowing loss for us had that gone on longer.
[00:33:40] Or never had a resolution. Yeah, that was the night that I had to stay up thinking that my brother was missing because he was, and and halfway across the country from me missing too, and it just, so there, there are these issues of closeness in my book and they're geographical as well as metaphorical because there was some of [00:34:00] that in our relationship.
[00:34:01] And certainly I felt very far away that night. And really it was terrible. Yeah. And I really love that you touched on the missing aspect of it because there have, I have gotten countless messages or, just different comments from people before they're like, I've had my sister or I've had my brother missing for 10 years, 15 years, 20 years, different.
[00:34:24] And I connect with what you're saying. I think they will connect with that too. I'm sure you guys will. If you hopefully listen to this incredible episode, because I'm with you. I don't believe in closure. It's just, I think there's it's an interesting word. It's an interesting concept, right?
[00:34:38] I think there's always unanswered questions. So that's why I have trouble with closure too. But I do think there's a finality that happens with it when you're like, okay, I know this happened. This is real when there's always that kind of hope or like bargaining opportunity, right? For you to be like maybe this just happened, like [00:35:00] it, it dilutes the finality of it.
[00:35:02] And so I really connect with you. Yeah. My brother, the way I did, I there's a narrative that I could play out that he was just traveling somewhere forever and that someday he'd come back. It could be very open ended in a way that, that wouldn't be very healthy. And so I, my heart really goes out to people who have someone missing.
[00:35:23] I think that's gotta be one of the hardest things you could possibly go through. Yeah, I think so too. And it's always a challenge for me when I hear that, but I have so much empathy and as do you, and you've. You went through that experience for, two days, like we don't know what's going on, like a difficult.
[00:35:39] So walk us through that a little bit. And I know you go in detail in the book, but just to give us some perspective, what was it like when, you went through this? Obviously you've explained, we all know how difficult that would be to not know, but how were you feeling once you knew and what happened next for your family?
[00:35:59] What was that like? [00:36:00] Yeah. It's interesting. I think a lot about wills and estates and final wishes and things because David died without any of those documents and Please everyone, even if you're 25, have a will. It just makes so, so many things so much better for people who you leave behind It's just, it was very hard to not know What he wanted, but I give incredible credit to his teammates, those men and women that he'd been on racetracks with and done orienteering with and all over the place.
[00:36:37] I think When you've done life and death adventures with people, you do talk about it. I know you do because I talked to his teammates and at least they knew that he wanted to be cremated because my mom and I had no idea. Tommy, my other brother, had no idea. We were, we hadn't had those conversations because David was 47 and he was in his prime [00:37:00] and we hadn't accepted that everyone dies.
[00:37:03] And, So it was really a huge gift that his teammates were so informative to us when we were just scrambling to have any idea how to cope at all. We argued over what to do in terms of a ceremony ultimately ended up having a very beautiful Ceremony that I described in some detail in the book in a Unitarian church, that was David and Tommy's stepmother's church.
[00:37:29] We can talk about being that whole thing too, because I have a relationship beyond our shared mom. With David and Tommy's dad and stepmother. So that's been a really important aspect of it is also these kind of extended family units that came into to help when we were so beside ourselves, we were a total disaster.
[00:37:52] The, and it really made me think in retrospect, how crazy it is that families have to plan funerals in the immediate [00:38:00] aftermath of the pandemic. Of someone dying. Because it's your executive functioning is not high in those moments. Oh, absolutely not. No. All that death admin stuff is brutally hard to negotiate.
[00:38:14] And so I'll forever be grateful to David and Tommy's stepmother, Sarah. She was an absolute godsend. Basically my mom went to Colorado and started dealing with things. And some of my brother's teammates were there as well. And so they rallied together and. And dealt with the immediate things that had to be handled while I was out in Massachusetts, feeling very displaced.
[00:38:35] And ultimately things came together in Houston for a really great memorial service, but it did take us some time in part, I think. Every death is difficult and I think a sudden one just throws people even more off their axis in terms of there's no scenario in which we thought we would be having to plan for this.
[00:38:57] Yeah, I agree. I think, yeah, I think it brings on [00:39:00] different challenges and we've talked about it in, in different episodes, there's anticipatory, losses that have their own challenges and it's why it's so important to me that we don't, Often people will say this was the worst thing or this is the worst thing.
[00:39:13] It's all bad. It's just what comes with each one. And I so connect again with what you're saying because my loss was sudden too. And by no means were we expecting to, plan a funeral and cremate my 27 year old brother. So it's like you're totally in shock over all of this and you're sitting there and they're like, What urn do you want?
[00:39:34] When do you need the ashes? Like, all this really weird, matter of fact, admin stuff, like you said. And it's I don't even think this is real right now, and I have to make this decision? I often feel just the stages of grief with Kubler Ross and all of that, right? That's thinking through anticipatory.
[00:39:54] I think all of this stuff was created for anticipatory losses, right? It's in a lot of ways because we know [00:40:00] we're going to have to plan a funeral at some point. We know we're going to have to, was this really created for sudden loss? But how do you know do you open a funeral home? Hey, we specialize in sudden loss.
[00:40:09] So we know what to say. So it's I have to make myself laugh sometimes. And when I talk about this stuff, because I'm like, But I get what you're saying. It's just not the whole planning a funeral celebration of life or whatever you choose to do. It's not geared towards this happened suddenly, even though, the church or a funeral home or they see it.
[00:40:30] It's not what you would expect to be going through. And I think there's a lot of importance in bringing that up for people, especially if they've been through a sudden loss and just know that it's okay to, think this was totally crazy and not real while also saying sure we'll take that casket that will work and we can do the memorial or the service or the viewing on Friday at six like It's crazy weird.
[00:40:53] It's super weird, and I know that your story very much intersects with mine in terms of that [00:41:00] complete There's no disorientation quite like it. It's an absolute, massive I don't even know if shock to the system is big enough. It's catastrophic feeling. It's it's hard to put your pants on. It's hard to know how to eat a sandwich.
[00:41:14] Nothing. Nothing. Make sense in those moments in the early aftermath of something that is so unforeseeable and so sudden it's just, I, it's strange. It like makes me feel uncomfortable talking about it because I remember how uncomfortable I was. I had no idea how to navigate anything and that moment.
[00:41:36] And it was, that's why I'm so grateful for the people who were around us, who were functioning a little bit better. And it's not that they weren't affected by what happened, but they just had one degree removal so that they were able to cope. Cause we, we could have just laid down on the floor for the rest of our lives.
[00:41:55] It was it was so unbearably difficult to accept. [00:42:00] Yeah. So then having to do things like that in funeral homes and whatnot, just is adds a whole other surreal dimension to the entire experience. And I remember receiving my brother's ashes and it being quite frankly, one of the weirdest things that I've ever experienced.
[00:42:17] And it's, it does happens every single solitary day in a funeral home. And for them, it's just the order of business. Yeah. But again, they had to look at a family accepting this box that made no sense and see how completely beside ourselves we were. And it wasn't, and it was partly that our beloved person was gone, but it was also, it's also, it seems incomprehensible.
[00:42:41] They can then be in this tiny box. The whole thing, it just, it defies logic on so many levels when you go through it. And so I think. I remember at the time my mom and I checking in with each other and just saying just put one foot in front of the other. It was a very [00:43:00] moment by moment kind of way of trying to just get through an hour a day.
[00:43:08] Those early times were really difficult. Bizarre. I don't think I really ever understood the put one foot in front of the other or just take it day by day. I've never been that personality at all until this happened. Then I got it. It was like, Oh, because I'm always like a future thinker and planner.
[00:43:25] And it, even though this experience is so horrific, it did teach me to be much more in the moment. What you were talking about a little bit earlier in this episode. It does teach you to be much more present. And, After coming out of the trauma of the loss for me, I've always been like a warrior, super anxiety, which I found through lots of therapy.
[00:43:43] It means you live in the future a lot. Cause you're always thinking people who tend to be in the past, like they tend to be a little more depressed because they think back. I'm like, Oh, wonderful. I'm not a psychologist, but check. It clicked with me, when my therapist did explain all this to me and it's allowed me to be more in the present.
[00:43:59] So I'm really [00:44:00] glad that you brought that up earlier too, that, you're This is horrific to go through this, but it does teach you certain things and everyone has their own. It sounds weird, but everyone gets their own gifts out of trauma and loss. And that was one that I got. So I totally get that phrase now, but I didn't, I would have not understood that, but it literally is just sometimes one foot in front of the other for an hour, take a shower today, brush your teeth today.
[00:44:24] It's intense. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, those little things, just getting through them and realizing that you can live again. It's a big deal. So and you go through losing David, he, and you talk about this at length in your book, but he fell, right? So if you want to just explain a little bit about what happened to him, then I want to talk about how you went from 2008 to last year when you published the book, I really want to touch on that because it's such an important part of your story, but tell us just about David's, what did you guys find out?
[00:44:58] He fell [00:45:00] well, on an adventure, but yeah, what happened? It's interesting to some extent, we'll never have the whole story. So spoiler, I don't have that for you, but he was very ambitious as aforementioned and was very fit and very planful and had a great, Sense of navigation and all of that, which I only mentioned to say that's part of why we don't understand what happened is that he was technically from the vantage point of many other people who do that kind of hiking really prepared for it.
[00:45:33] He took off in the morning to try to bag three 14ers that day, which he did do, and the reason we know that is that he signed registers at the top, things I didn't even know were a thing until this all happened, but there are registers on top of mountains where people who summited can leave a note in their name.
[00:45:54] And so he had done that on all three of these 14, 000 [00:46:00] plus foot peaks in the Southern song of Christos Ellingwood, Blanca peak, and then finally one called little bear and. It's funny. His stepbrother and I both got very involved in trying to understand what happened. And there was this almost obsessive need to understand why was he there?
[00:46:26] What was the weather like who found him? Where was he? What could have happened? And. Ultimately, there were some really strange media reports that came out afterwards that weren't right. The coroner's report said certain things. But what was probably most helpful to me was the reports from some other hikers who'd been on the mountains those days that he was out, and also talking to a search and rescue guy himself, who hadn't actually been on the mountains.
[00:46:58] On my brother's [00:47:00] search, but had a really keen sense about how those things go. So ultimately, , my obsessive curiosity about what happened got us to the point where he fell after summiting little bear, maybe due to disorientation from weather altitude. Could have been a combination of factors. He could have been exhausted because even for a super fit guy, three of those mountains, especially when you live at sea level in Houston could mess up a body.
[00:47:33] But you can, again, my brother was a doctor. He knew what happened to bodies. So a question I want to ask you because of that, Ann, is I get this all the time and I'm sure you do too from people. How do you stop the what ifs? Because you sound a lot like me on my story, although two completely different losses, there were still a lot of and I connect with you on that kind of Put on your detective hat.
[00:47:58] Let's go out there. Let's figure out, [00:48:00] but we'll never know everything. We'll never know everything. And in my story, like there was a moment for me when I finally felt like I got enough information and I'm, and I had to release that fact. I had to say, I have to know I'm never going to know everything, but I think I know enough.
[00:48:17] So like I can release a little bit or I could breathe a little bit. I think it's so hard because It's a journey to get there. What advice would you give for people that are constantly asking the what ifs, what, like people get stuck in this for years, sometimes a lifetime. What advice do you have? What shifted for you?
[00:48:35] I would love to just chat about that for a second. I don't know that I have a magic answer about this one. I think. There's something about my whole journey that, and it's something that I've certainly heard from other people after sharing my story. And I know you have to there's a sense of just finally being seen with your pain, with your loss, and then [00:49:00] sometimes with your obsession to know that sometimes just being seen about it is a really big deal.
[00:49:06] And I got part of that out of being in a bereavement group. And I got part of it from books like DeVita Rayburn's. I also, I can't overestimate how much it meant to me to know that there was someone else in the family that was also asking those questions. Even though we don't have the answers. I was nine years out, and I think I published a short piece from the book.
[00:49:35] And my brother's stepbrother reached out. And said, I have some information you might want. And because he is, my half brother, stepbrother, we're not, we don't talk all the time. We don't have a regular connection. And I had no idea that he had been down a similar path all these years, trying to put together the pieces and that he'd done some research that I hadn't done [00:50:00] and hadn't been able to do.
[00:50:01] It was really affecting to me to know that someone else was wondering all of these things, even though we didn't get to an answer. And I remember getting off the phone with him after he shared all of his kind of detective work with me, I went and took a shower and I bawled my eyes out in the shower.
[00:50:23] I was married at the time and I was like, I just, I don't think I, I even feel comfortable being such a hot mess nine years later, but he just opened this valve. I And I just cried my eyes out in the shower, but it was partly relief. That someone else, again, didn't think I was nuts for feeling the way that I was feeling and for being obsessive about trying to get some sense of, if not an understanding to what exactly happened to get some meaning out of it.
[00:50:55] And I think. That's been part of the process that's been so powerful [00:51:00] for me is that you talk about so well about the things that we learn through these processes and what we walk away with in terms of, that ability to be more present and to have a different perspective about things. I do think there's a lot to be said for.
[00:51:18] Recognizing that you aren't alone with your feelings and that other people can go down the same path. And I, I really can't overestimate the sense of just knowing you're not alone. The sense of community that makes you feel like you aren't broken. And so I don't know how to answer the question exactly what to do.
[00:51:37] I think you did a great job. That's it. That's perfect. Yeah, and I think it's the answer is it's unique to for all of us which you just perfectly described, but as you were talking, I was like, Oh, my God, that was a moment for me, too, because, and I thought I was the only one out there with my detective hat on trying to figure this out.
[00:51:58] And I talk about this in the first [00:52:00] season, but When I finally got a detective that would work on this and like really actually cared and pulled everything out and I just adore him for this, but I found out that my father who I did not have a close relationship with who I do now have a close relationship with had also been calling and doing the research and was not giving up that changed everything for me too.
[00:52:21] So I so connect with you about your step or his stepbrother calling and saying it was a moment for me. Finding this out from a stranger telling me, he's there's one man that calls all the time and is emailing all the time. And I was like, who is it? My father. I just got back from seeing him in Africa over Christmas.
[00:52:40] It changed the game for me because I was like, we grieved very deeply. Similarly, and I just, it just changed everything. Feeling seen, I think, is huge, and that's why you're right, community is really important, because I wish I had community, I didn't have to wait for that moment. I'm sure you wish you didn't have to wait for that moment for your brother's [00:53:00] stepbrother to reach out, and that's a long time to be going through that, so I connect with that too.
[00:53:04] It is an answer. Community is the answer. So you don't feel alone. Okay, so your book came out in 2023. So based on what you're saying, you had written some stuff, but why now? Why publish the book now? Cause it's been out for over a year now. So tell us about that. Why now? It was such a long journey.
[00:53:26] Part of it is for people who've published books, partly, it just takes a really long time to bring a book to market. So that was part of it. Part of it was that I didn't know exactly what I wanted to write. And part of it was that I didn't know exactly how to write it. I legit went back to grad school at 41 to figure out how to tell the story.
[00:53:46] I had been a writer in undergrad, as in studied ton of poetry and I'm a, as a marketing communications person to pay the bills. So I do a lot of writing for my day job, but it's really different kinds of writing. And I [00:54:00] found a program that was all creative nonfiction, and it just really spoke to me.
[00:54:05] I sent them a writing sample that was related to losing David and got in. And I had no life for two whole years while I got my MFA, but it was an incredible program and a huge game changer. Really helped me shift from the old adage being having a story to tell and then becoming a storyteller. I finally felt like I was more equipped with the tools and I left my MFA program with a thesis that was an early draft of my book.
[00:54:39] So that's part of how it came to fruition for anyone who's been in grad school, especially while they worked full time, the all the way through I needed a serious break. And also writing about my brother for two years straight was emotionally really difficult. And certainly that's something I talk about a lot in my writing workshops [00:55:00] is how this stuff takes time because the material is so hard.
[00:55:04] So that's a huge part of it too. But I did take a year off from the manuscript after I graduated. Then I finally was awarded my first writing residency, where I finished a complete draft. I knew that the book was actually Done in terms of having a real completed feeling. And that was 2019. So you'll understand if my manuscript was done in 2019, that pitching a book.
[00:55:35] At that point started to be a real problem because we had this little pandemic situation and despite what was going on, nobody wanted to touch a grief memoir. And I still don't think it's a sexy thing for publishers, it's not a beach read. Or at least not for most people.
[00:55:53] Although someone did tell me they took my book to the beach and I loved it. But it took a really long time to find people [00:56:00] who were willing to work with me on it. Because memoirs can be hard to sell and griefy things, as we've talked about, aren't things everyone wants to touch. But I really wanted to tell a story.
[00:56:14] The world about David, that was a big motivation. And I really wanted to share something that like you've done here, tells people they aren't the only one because I can't overestimate how. Stunning. It was to go to the bookstore and have even clerks say to me like, Oh, that is really weird that we don't have anything about brothers or sisters.
[00:56:39] Here's some stuff about, parents and children and spouses and all the stuff that we much more commonly tend to elevate in the realm of, this whole hierarchy of grief notion that, but I. Isn't mine to claim, but as one that has felt really resonant that I want, I [00:57:00] wanted so badly to be able to offer something to one other brother or sister out there.
[00:57:05] So it was really very much an exercise in perseverance, but it did take a really long time. I don't always know how to answer the question of how long it took to write. Because it was in fits and starts over so many years I can say that even once I've got a publishing contract, it still took almost two more years for it to come to market.
[00:57:28] So that's a cliff notes version of the path, but it just took a long time. And I think. When people are writing about very difficult personal things, it's really important to not feel rushed about it because I think it can feel re traumatizing sometimes if you don't take care of yourself in the process. I had to take a lot of breaks. I just did because it was so hard, even though it felt really rewarding to put [00:58:00] everything down on the page and work my way through. The book is a real kind of tangible example of my grief process. I think to some extent that's what it is a 10 year journey of Anne grappling with losing David and all of what that meant.
[00:58:20] So it's very specific to my situation, but it's also universal in terms of that. It takes a long time. A lot of times I know that we've talked about this issue of the complicated grief that the diagnostic manual decided to put into play a couple of years ago. I think it's really difficult for people to think that they get one year to grieve and then they're supposed to be all done going back to that whole, there's no straight through line.
[00:58:48] I guess I also wanted to share that with people, that it's, you're not the only one who gets obsessed. You're not the only one for whom it takes a long time and. Yeah, it's really that sense of wanting to connect and I've been so [00:59:00] delighted that it has connected with readers that way So that makes me feel like it succeeded in doing what I wanted it to do Definitely if that was your intention and definitely and so much more and I would agree as someone who's read the book like it definitely Is like it's there's so much David in it, but it is your journey It is your journey and I know like I know you guys, if you have not read it, we'll connect with it, but I want to go back to what you were saying, though, and then we're going to talk about where to find your book and everything, but that it took you a long time to do this.
[00:59:29] I love that it took you a long time. What is that? What does that even mean? I felt so much pressure personally. So I just connected all of this to tell my brother's story, to get it out there. I was like, Oh my God, if I don't talk about him, if I don't create something, if I don't do something, he's going to be forgotten.
[00:59:47] But I love that I waited five years to, as I always say, come to the mic and tell the story because I was not ready before then. And there was not much of a journey. [01:00:00] To talk about and I try to drive that home with people that apply to be on the show because a lot of people apply to be on the show now and I think it's beautiful that they want to share their sibling or God forbid siblings in their story, but there's so much power in what you're saying and sharing and like it took you time and that's okay and taking breaks.
[01:00:20] Because you're right. It is re traumatizing to tell your story. And I have had people think they want to share their story or come on the show, or they think they want to write a book or they want, and then they end up stopping and they're like, you know what? I'm not ready. And I don't know if there's ever like a perfect moment to be ready, but it takes time because I think we, especially when we're heavy in the grieving, right?
[01:00:46] In the first one to two or even three years, again, everyone has their own timeline, but. We think if we just, if we talk about them and we share it, like we just think it's I personally stepped back and I was like, I don't really have much to share. I'm angry. I'm not really ready to [01:01:00] do this.
[01:01:00] And I think it's great that like your journey and what you went through. And I think it's so cool that you went back to school and you were like, I want to do this and I really want to be invested in this. And the book turned out great. It really shows, but. Yeah. It shows a journey.
[01:01:13] It's not just like this happened to me. And I find that to be inspirational, right? Like you're sharing what happened, but you're also sharing like this was hard and this was difficult and, but here I am. And here's the product of this. And I think that's what I personally find in my grief journey. I think you guys listening do as well to be helpful.
[01:01:34] Okay, this really was awful. This was hard. These were my moments. Thanks. But this is how this person came out on the other side, and this is what they did with it. That's what I find inspiring, and I think that's reflected very well in your book. Thank you so much. It's all I hope for. Yeah. Yeah. But I think again it's, don't rush if you get anything out of this episode, I'm gonna get so much out of it.
[01:01:58] But the, the [01:02:00] mantra of not rushing the grief because it can be re traumatizing I'm sure everybody asks you, Oh, is it cathartic to write the book? Cause everyone always asks me, is it cathartic doing the show? And it's amazing doing interviews. And I love having people like you on and, but when I did the first season, it was my story.
[01:02:19] It was everything you described it to be. It was re traumatizing, it was sad, it was happy, it was a relief, it was so many different things, and people don't always understand what it takes to really go, because you have to go back into that time, and live it, to actually be able to express it appropriately.
[01:02:35] And it's not for everyone, and that's okay. Yes. But I do remember an early writing professor in my program, who had also written a book about grief. Asking me how long has it been? Because I think for her, that was a barometer of whether I should even be writing. And when I said to her, it's in seven years, she said okay, fine.
[01:02:58] But I know, I knew that if I [01:03:00] said, Oh, it was a year ago, she was going to be like, you're going to want to just go to therapy for now. We'll talk to you later. Yup. People always ask me that too. They're like why wouldn't you have people on in recent grief? I'm like, come back and talk to me at a couple of years and you'll know why.
[01:03:15] But there, there is an emotional component to it. There's a psychological component to it. There's a legal component to it. There's just. You don't have much of a story yet because you're on, you're in the thick of the journey or sometimes you're just in the fog. Yeah, I think that's interesting that even your professor was like, how long has it been?
[01:03:34] Cause when yeah. Yeah. Now for sure. Okay, and tell us, we're obviously going to put this in the show notes as well, but tell us where we can find your book. Sure! You can find it at my publisher's website, which is vineleavespress. com, but it's also available at all the normal places you would want to find books.
[01:03:53] Your independent bookseller can order it for you, which is wonderful because that brings exposure to the book. [01:04:00] And it helps your local industry. So that's my favorite. Bookshop. org is a good online resource. If you need to go that route, there's of course the one that starts with the capital A that all of us authors have to do business with.
[01:04:15] Barnes and Noble. It's also available as a Kindle format through Apple books. Perfect. And of course, again, where you close, we'll include that in the show notes. And if people want to connect with you, Anne what's the best way to connect with you. Probably through my website, which is annepinkertonwriter.
[01:04:32] com, and there are links to my social media handles there. There are places to buy the book. There are grief resources. There's all kinds of goodies on there, and you can also email me from there if you want to be in touch personally. Perfect. Ann, thank you so much for sharing your story and David and your family with us today and writing this incredible book.
[01:04:53] It's been awesome having you here. Thank you so much for having me. It's one of the strange lemons to [01:05:00] lemonade things that we got to meet. Absolutely. I totally agree. 
[01:05:04] Thank you so much for listening to the surviving siblings podcast. If you enjoyed this episode as much as I did creating it for you, then share it on your chosen social media platform. And don't forget to tag us at surviving siblings podcast so that more surviving siblings can find us. Remember to rate review and subscribe to the podcast.
[01:05:28] And don't forget to follow us on all social media platforms. We're on Instagram, Twitter, and Tik TOK at Surviving Siblings Podcast. All links can be found in the show notes, so be sure to check those out too. Thank you again for the support. Until the next episode, keep on surviving, my surviving [01:06:00] siblings.